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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#781

Post by kaba0 »

dleslie wrote: post #762
kaba0 wrote: post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which distro? I have one as well and at least under mobian , while it is really far from stable, it works. But reboot cycles sound like a hardware bug rather than unstable hardware.

I've tried: Ubuntu Touch Mobian (phosh) PostmarketOS (sxmo, phosh) Manjaro (Phosh, Plasma and Lomiri) And multiple release versions of each; using multiple different sdcards as well as the on-board memory. The only OS that doesn't exhibit the reboot/black-screen issues for me is the one used to allow flashing of the device over USB. The factory test software works, all of the different OS variants; so if there is a h…

Interesting, but if you really are enthusiastic about the pinephone than perhaps try to order another motherboard (I’m thinking about it because the older has only 2 GB of ram)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#782

Post by nitrogen »

cycloptic wrote: post #777
nitrogen wrote: post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe things have improved over the last several years, now that systemd is fait accompli. Earlier on in its life I recall discussions of GNOME features that would only work on Linux+systemd, and the BSDs were complaining. But the point remains that, even without any ill intent, the lack of competition and compromise can produce outcomes that look like malice -- people gradually get used to making decisions that go u…

I remember that too and the main issue was that BSD didn't have an answer to logind and it took them a while to port later versions of GNOME 3 because of it. You can't seriously expect Red Hat or some other Linux distribution to drop everything and figure out the best way to get new features to work on all the BSDs before they release something, that's something only the BSD developers can do. If the "dog" here is su…

One example is a tree. We are looking at a forest.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#783

Post by cycloptic »

nitrogen wrote: post #782
cycloptic wrote: post #777

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember that too and the main issue was that BSD didn't have an answer to logind and it took them a while to port later versions of GNOME 3 because of it. You can't seriously expect Red Hat or some other Linux distribution to drop everything and figure out the best way to get new features to work on all the BSDs before they release something, that's something only the BSD developers can do. If the "dog" here is su…

One example is a tree. We are looking at a forest.

Not really, AFAIK this is the only part of systemd that really caused an issue, and it was because this is a capability that really needs to be provided by the OS and can't realistically be maintained as part of a desktop environment.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#784

Post by ddingus »

cycloptic wrote: post #744
ddingus wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let them. That's what I do. And I do that because someone, somewhere will pay now, or pay later. Maybe the customer finds someone hungry enough to pay for them. Or, maybe that customer pays hard going through this cycle a few times too. Not my problem and it does not have to be yours.

To be clear, I was mostly referring to low-or-zero-cost products mentioned previously like gmail, outlook or excel, or any random zero-cost piece of open source you can download on github. If you depend on that stuff then it is your problem, that's a signal that you won't pay the extra cost for stability. The businesses that can afford the extra stability are not using the consumer offering, they pay Google/Microsoft…

I do not agree all those are the same as rando OSS on github BTW.

Because of that problem, I have always maintained we need a way to better fund some projects.

I would love to see the display system funded and all the good stuff worked out properly. For me, the network features and general flexibility of X is worth some money.

When I ran SGI machines, that money was paid and the display systems were flat out awesome.

If it does not do those awesome things? Meh, can just run Win 10.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#785

Post by growse »

betterunix2 wrote: post #408
foldr wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything. They're not pretending. I'm afraid you're laboring under a misconception. Nothing obliges the GNOME team to accede to the wishes of people who contribute nothing to…

"Nothing obliges the GNOME team to accede to the wishes of people who contribute nothing to the project" Nothing, until users flee and they stop receiving bug reports, patches, donations, and so forth. Moreover, because of what Gnome is, if they drive users away it will also negatively impact other projects, because for a lot of those users leaving Gnome means ditching open source software entirely and switching to e…

If the users aren't willing to fork, then having them run away to osx (where, by the way, everything is also imposed on you) doesn't seem that great of a loss.

Part of the joy of open source are the freedoms it gives you, including the freedom to fork a project that doesn't meet your needs and make it so that it does. This works as it should pretty often - look at the gnome2 forks, the systemd-less distros etc. There's plenty of choice out there, and plenty of opportunity to get involved.

If you're unwilling to exercise those freedoms, then you're just whining about the stuff you're getting for free.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#786

Post by type0 »

cycloptic wrote: post #610
Miraste wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's their justification, but put a non-technical user in front of a gnome system and you will find nothing but confusion. It doesn't operate like any other OS GUI, nor is it intuitive or discoverable, nor does it have feature parity. They must be designing gnome for someone, but I don't know who.

I don't know, last time I tried stock Ubuntu I found it to be pretty similar to current macOS with the launchpad and mission control. In any case, the answer to those problems you're describing would be more and more breaking changes, not less.

Ubuntu ships with a patched version of GNOME, default experience is completely different.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#787

Post by dleslie »

kaba0 wrote: post #781
dleslie wrote: post #762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried: Ubuntu Touch Mobian (phosh) PostmarketOS (sxmo, phosh) Manjaro (Phosh, Plasma and Lomiri) And multiple release versions of each; using multiple different sdcards as well as the on-board memory. The only OS that doesn't exhibit the reboot/black-screen issues for me is the one used to allow flashing of the device over USB. The factory test software works, all of the different OS variants; so if there is a h…

Interesting, but if you really are enthusiastic about the pinephone than perhaps try to order another motherboard (I’m thinking about it because the older has only 2 GB of ram)

I've got the Manjaro CE version, so it should be new enough. I'm also not flush wish cash, so... Yah, I'll be buying diapers for my toddler, not a motherboard that may or may not work.

It's a shame, 'cause I really like the concept, and bought it for myself as a birthday gift. Thought it would be a fun project to hack on.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#788

Post by pmlnr »

vetinari wrote: post #664
pmlnr wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... ... Really? "Us, open source devs demans nvidia to alter their ways". And you wonder why people are disappointed in wayland?

Imagine this: Microsoft demands that Nvidia uses WDDM for their drivers. Otherwise DirectX would not work with Nvidia. Do you thing Nvidia would ignore them, like they ignore Linux?

M$ would probably pay nvidia. Does linux pay nvidia?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#789

Post by type0 »

cycloptic wrote: post #559
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah seriously. The Gnome project is go-to example of non-ad-driven user-hostile FOSS software development.

I have no idea why it has become so common on here to dog on GNOME for being "user-hostile" because they targeted a different kind of user than the average HN engineer/startup person. You can use one of the "GNOME 2 revival" type desktop environments if that's your fancy.

> because they targeted a different kind of user than the average HN engineer/startup person.

It is not, sometimes GNOME devs even say outright that the project is for their peers and those who share their vision. They do their testing on other GNOME aficionados. In the days of Unity, Canonical did some of their user testing on regular people, those days are long gone.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#790

Post by dang »

zzz143 wrote: post #722
dang wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't use HN for personal attack, no matter how strongly you disagree with someone. We're trying for something else in this community. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Which is what, exactly? Giving someone who compares disagreements over software to literal conspiracy theories a platform? The content doesn’t even fit your guidelines for intellectual interest. It’s a hateful, harmful rant with no substantive discussion. It’s literally flame bait, as evidenced by my showing up, but I don’t see you making any moves to remove the post despite it being voted up as much as my comment wa…

Of course the article doesn't meet HN's guidelines, but that's no reason to break them yourself. These are two separate issues.

Commenters routinely underestimate the amount of flamebait in their posts by 10x or more—it always feels like the other people are doing worse. No one would objectively describe your posts in this thread as "very moderated".

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