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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#741

Post by kaba0 »

dleslie wrote: post #734
kaba0 wrote: post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you abandon the security of wayland by an xwayland app? It only sees at most other xwayland apps. As for the pinephone part, I may not understand your point about “to Wayland’s credit”, do you think stability issues on the pinephone is due to wayland?

The PinePhone has unstable hardware, it doesn't matter if I run X or Wayland and it doesn't matter what distribution I use. I can't keep it operating for more than 5 minutes before the screen goes to blank and/or it gets stuck in an endless reboot cycle that requires removing the battery to halt.

Which distro? I have one as well and at least under mobian , while it is really far from stable, it works. But reboot cycles sound like a hardware bug rather than unstable hardware.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#742

Post by kaba0 »

bitwize wrote: post #669
kaba0 wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing fundamentally difficult about goddamn snow, like transparent windows are a thing in wayland, full screen overlays are supported in some compozitors, so feel free to port it over if this is really the ultimate thing you need in life?

Ah, but xsnow accumulates on your windows! Wayland clients are not allowed to know about other clients' window layout!

Under the base protocol. What is great about wayland is that it has proper extensions, and it is entirely reasonable to create a new one to query the current layout for some application.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#743

Post by rbanffy »

Spivak wrote: post #524
R0b0t1 wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, I know. But acting like Wayland is feature complete when it obviously isn't is pretty ridiculous. Instead of solving hard problems the Wayland maintainers are acting like you're stupid to want to have the features solving the hard problems enables.

I think Wayland is about as feature complete as it's gonna get at this point. Mutter, Kwin are still working on adding features to support workflows that relied on the loosey-goosey nature of Xorg. Like Xorg never had "support" for global hotkeys or screen sharing. It's just that programs were allowed access to all inputs and the screen buffer. Designing a system where only some programs are allowed to do that isn't…

That's more or less why I sometimes log in under X instead of Wayland - I can't run Fontforge under Wayland (not sure why and I don't have the bandwidth do dig deeper). Luckily, the machine behaves the same way.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#744

Post by cycloptic »

ddingus wrote: post #740
cycloptic wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're preaching to the choir. I wouldn't work on such a project again, but when you say "manage expectations" what usually happens there is the customer realizes it doesn't match their expectations and then goes somewhere else and finds something that's in their price range. The point is, there is a class of customers that aren't going to pay for this. Ever. They either can't afford it or have decided it's not valua…

So let them. That's what I do. And I do that because someone, somewhere will pay now, or pay later. Maybe the customer finds someone hungry enough to pay for them. Or, maybe that customer pays hard going through this cycle a few times too. Not my problem and it does not have to be yours.

To be clear, I was mostly referring to low-or-zero-cost products mentioned previously like gmail, outlook or excel, or any random zero-cost piece of open source you can download on github. If you depend on that stuff then it is your problem, that's a signal that you won't pay the extra cost for stability. The businesses that can afford the extra stability are not using the consumer offering, they pay Google/Microsoft for a long term support contract. (And yes, Xorg, Wayland, GNOME, KDE, and all the other open source Linux desktops are all under the category of random free project on github)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#745

Post by drran »

cycloptic wrote: post #585
irishsultan wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other reason is that this isn't base functionality, for example an embedded implementation has no need for screenshots. I'm unsure what kind of graphical environment you can imagine where screenshots are not useful at all (if only to capture the screen when something weird is going on).

There are numerous other graphical environments that Linux runs on where screenshots don't make sense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_on_embedded_systems For debugging purposes, the display server can just dump the screen to a file or a serial port itself. The only reason you would need this in the protocol is so other arbitrary applications could capture the screen.

Screenshots on embedded is very useful in some cases, like debugging, or information sharing or archiving, which often performed by smartphone camera today.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#746

Post by [deleted] »

ddingus wrote: post #737
cycloptic wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, if you have the kind of money that medical companies spend on testing and stability, and you want to spend that on Linux desktop environments, I won't complain. Although it probably is better to spend that on developing life saving devices than it is on fixing outdated desktop paradigms.

Sidebar: desktop paradigms are hardly outdated. There are competing paradigms now, and that is good, but they have not yet actually reached use value and productivity levels where it is appropriate to say the desktop paradigm is out of date. At the worst, both will become more generally flexible to keep their value to the users.

[deleted]

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#747

Post by forgotmypw17 »

RedShift1 wrote: post #443
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well yeah, i just got used to it working a certain way, now i gotta figure it out again. fucking nerds acting like it,s no big deal when shit i use every day is all changed up. do you have any idea how much cognitive load that is for the average user to figure out new ui? and usually for no good reason, just to change shit up so someone can get credit for a project. don,t blame the users for software being shit. it,s…

I think the biggest problem is software changing from under people's feet. We used to have stable version cycles and when it was time to upgrade, users expected change and having to re-learn some stuff. But now things just change whenever. And sometimes drastically, like buttons that previously had a fixed place and were always there can now only be accessed by moving your cursor in the right place. Very frustrating.…

> I think the biggest problem is software changing from under people's feet. We used to have stable version cycles and when it was time to upgrade, users expected change and having to re-learn some stuff.

This. I think it's incredibly inconsiderate to do that to a user who never asked for it.

As a user, I abhor this mentality, and respond to it by leaving. And if I have to stay, I boycott the nag dialogs and just leave them open, to embarrass the developer in front of anyone who may be watching my screencast.

As a programmer, I go out of my way to ensure that my software works the way the user wants, and an upgrade is never demanded.

I design for back and forth compatibility, so that I can go back and forward to any version I desire, as long as there's a commit for it.

It may not work perfectly going back a year, but if it's a stable version, it should run.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#748

Post by darkwater »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #96
darkwater wrote: post #11

Wayland is being treated like PulseAudio and systemd before. So, it will probably win its battle, thanks $DEITY.

I still have to kill pulseaudio regularly to get audio working. In 2021.

I don't, Bluetooth works smoothly, I can easily set audio per app, audio flow from BT headset to speaker when I turn off the former, nobody hears me badly in videocalls and a large etc. The only think it can be improved is the plugins management with some neat, optional GUI.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#749

Post by dralley »

Too wrote: post #678
Spivak wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just say Mutter or Kwin are shit then. Saying Wayland is shit is like HTML is shit because you don't like Firefox.

Most users don't know the difference, to either of those statements. For them "the internet is broken".

Nobody complains about the W3C because their internet is broken.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#750

Post by PurpleFoxy »

adkadskhj wrote: post #680
__s wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll work with Nouveau. Nvidia refuses to implement an interface in their driver every other graphics driver implements Drew wrote a blog entirely devoted to the Nvidia issue: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html

As an aside, i hate GPUs on Linux. I'm running Blender and am in the market for a new PC build. The GPU is a huge source of confusion, due to Linux. I see so many conflicting stories about how well AMD GPUs behave and perform on Linux. Some new, many old. Some even as extreme as "I bought a new AMD GPU and there are no drivers for it yet". Furthermore for Blender specifically AMD seems to get the short stick in perfo…

Amd should work but you will most likely require the proprietary drivers which implement openCL. Amd has a second project called rocm which is meant to work with blender and be open source but it has shocking support for their products (no support for the 5700xt)
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