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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#691

Post by kaba0 »

adkadskhj wrote: post #176
BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

Yea i'm confused by this line. I'm a Linux-desktop-noob, but i was going to use i3-Wayland, aka Sway, and because i have an Nvidia i was told don't bother. Nvidia Drivers + Wayland sound broken? Now that may not be true.. but it seemed clear cut. I wanted to try Wayland really bad because i have a multi-DPI monitor setup, and Xorg is awful at that. Yet, it seemed too early. Nvidia isn't exactly some niche product. No…

If we are being pedantic, linux doesn’t support nvidia (more correctly the reverse), sway only tries to build upon the user space provided by the linux kernel.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#692

Post by WesolyKubeczek »

thatguy0900 wrote: post #340
boudin wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reverse is also true. Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine. You make a lot of assumptions there but the reality is often much more nuanced. Everything changes, all the time, that's a rule that is true for absolutely everything in life.

Is that really true? I can get into basically any car and understand everything immediately because they are all mostly the same. If Linux could software update the insides of a Linux car it would be unrecognizable every year.

The insides, thank deities, would stay pretty much the same or even better (safer). If you opened the bonnet, you'd be in tears about how solid and sound everything is. You'd need to figure out where the doors are, though, and why some son of a gun decided that the steering wheel should protrude from the ceiling.

Asking the manufacturer would open the flood gates about how ungrateful you are about all the years put into designing the thing, and how other options were "confusing" to drivers, although said drivers should clearly be of some extraterrestrial species with a different set of sensory organs and appendages.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#693

Post by ddingus »

cycloptic wrote: post #684
ddingus wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many will not evaluate software that is unstable, because that is a clear sign the whole effort is not yet suitable for any meaningful time investment. Play it how you will, of course. I will pass hard personally. Lack of stability is very high on my qualification list. To be blunt, where it exists there are other priority problems. One may just be flashy speed and other sizzle done at the general expense of the solu…

>The team that did not make stability a priority did a lot of market building for the ones who did. I personally am very frustrated by this constantly, but there is no way around it that will always work. Someone has to pay the cost of market building, it is a separate cost from stability, and sometimes you can't afford both.

There isn't.

But, what does work far more frequently is to get the solution robust early. The longer it gets put off, the more difficult doing it is, both in time, cost, users being requited to do things along the way to support it all.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#694

Post by troyvit »

Spivak wrote: post #452
sokoloff wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on if the precise argument is closer to "Wayland, as experienced by everyday users, is shit" or "Wayland, as a Platonic ideal, is shit." People, especially people trying to work done on their computers, usually mean the former.

Just say Mutter or Kwin are shit then. Saying Wayland is shit is like HTML is shit because you don't like Firefox.

That doesn't work for users though. I've used KDE since the 20th century and it has been pretty reliable. Kwin hasn't been shit. Maybe it's best to say Kwin + Wayland is shit, or Mutter + Wayland is shit.

But if Kwin & Mutter aren't quite shit when it was combined with X, but are shit when combined with Wayland, how does that shape perceptions of Wayland?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#695

Post by kaba0 »

Miraste wrote: post #339
__s wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll work with Nouveau. Nvidia refuses to implement an interface in their driver every other graphics driver implements Drew wrote a blog entirely devoted to the Nvidia issue: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html

On the one hand, trying to work with a company as intractable and anti-OSS as Nvidia must be incredibly frustrating and I sympathize. Nouveau is too slow and broken to be usable, and that's also NV's fault. On the other, I'm never going to choose Wayland over Nvidia (i.e. throw out all my GPUs and buy slower ones), and it obviously can't be a default in any major distros while this is still the case. So long as it's…

Yet again, wayland is the protocol. Wlroots based wayland compositors doesn’t support the nvidia created API, but gnome and as far as I know plasma on wayland both do so. So your statement is simply false that wayland can’t run on nvidia (proprietary. The open source version works everywhere).

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#696

Post by cycloptic »

valand wrote: post #690
cycloptic wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great when the feature set you're talking about has already been validated by the market. When it's not, it's a mistake to focus on that. I believe we call that "premature optimization."

In some domains stability and correctness is a feature. You can't omit stability in life-critical software for example. On the other hand software's usefulness can outinfluence unstability, if there are no alternatives.

Hey, if you have the kind of money that medical companies spend on testing and stability, and you want to spend that on Linux desktop environments, I won't complain. Although it probably is better to spend that on developing life saving devices than it is on fixing outdated desktop paradigms.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#697

Post by jeffnappi »

This is just a reminder to be nice to your maintainers folks. XOrg has had 16 years to get to the functionality level it has, and there are massive holes in it's security model etc that Wayland is attempting to solve. It's going to take time for it to reach feature parity. And they have to bring along all of the popular applications while they are at it.

If you're going to complain, at least be constructive, research solutions yourself and provide feedback that has value.

I'm not sure if the Wayland contributors are overreacting, but I'm guessing people are not being nice when something doesn't work and write posts like "Wayland sucks so bad it doesn't work on XYZ" rather than posting "So I found out that Wayland doesn't work for XYZ, how can I help the project with this?"

And helping in the context might be as simple as writing up the use case and providing logs, or maybe raising the issue with the app developer.

For example - here's a bug report I wrote instead of just complaining that BT doesn't work well on Linux/Ubuntu: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/18...

It's getting solved!

The open source ecosystem is all of ours and we should nurture it rather than just wine about it's problems. At least they are our problems and we can have a meaningful impact on them :)

* small grammatical edit

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#698

Post by zamadatix »

vetinari wrote: post #683
zamadatix wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pipewire is still 0.x as of today, let alone when they last tried it, so I don't think anybody should be going to Slack like they were too lazy to build it "right". Besides even if it was built with that the screensharing via pipewire isn't at feature parity with normal screen/monitor/window level sharing so it's not a 1:1 drop in quite yet. Wayland said screen sharing is something to be solved outside of Wayland its…

Yes, Pipewire is at 0.3 today; but that's not a problem. Pipewire has the ambition to replace Pulseaudio, Jack and provide APIs for several other subject, not just screen grabbing. That's the part that is missing toward 1.0. Screengrabbing during the last year was even better than what X11 could provide, including the ability for the user to limit the grabbing to display or window. That's something that user cannot h…

Pipewire is definitely the right path when things are complete but right now you have to build with a beta version of Electron with build flags and rutime flags to use a 0.x version of Pipewire and when you do it currently only presents the option to capture the full screen.

I.e. it's not that the tech stack or architecure is the wrong it's simply not done yet and not done to the point it's a bit silly to blame Slack for not enabling it.

It's also not the fault of wayland/pipewire/chromium/electron/slack for not all simultaneously releasing working screen sharing but it is a mistake to say you can switch from X11 to and not worry about screen sharing.

I use pipewire for screen sharing, I like it, but its not a fully baked stack and won't be for some time yet.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#699

Post by ddingus »

valand wrote: post #690
cycloptic wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great when the feature set you're talking about has already been validated by the market. When it's not, it's a mistake to focus on that. I believe we call that "premature optimization."

In some domains stability and correctness is a feature. You can't omit stability in life-critical software for example. On the other hand software's usefulness can outinfluence unstability, if there are no alternatives.

Serious question: when are there not alternatives?

The point being made here is not that it always must be stable.

It is all about how often stability is not a priority when it could and or should be.

And in the no alternative scenario, it can be compelling to continue to ignore robustness to get growth and lock in.

When that happens, stability, robustness often stay in the back seat for a large fraction of the product life cycle.

For any given user, the impact may be just low enough to keep them on board too. New features, and asking more money for them, or offering them to make up for that impact can be an ugly cycle leading to users ripe for the picking later on.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#700

Post by Spivak »

troyvit wrote: post #694
Spivak wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just say Mutter or Kwin are shit then. Saying Wayland is shit is like HTML is shit because you don't like Firefox.

That doesn't work for users though. I've used KDE since the 20th century and it has been pretty reliable. Kwin hasn't been shit. Maybe it's best to say Kwin + Wayland is shit, or Mutter + Wayland is shit. But if Kwin & Mutter aren't quite shit when it was combined with X, but are shit when combined with Wayland, how does that shape perceptions of Wayland?

“Kwin the X11 window manager” and “Kwin the Wayland compositor” are entirely different things that look similar on the surface.

In an alternative universe there would be Kwin the X11 display server which would replace Xorg. I’m sure it would just be as big riddled and feature incomplete in the early years of its development.

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