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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#601

Post by rcxdude »

vetinari wrote: post #532
silisili wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Tried Wayland again last year. Screen sharing in Electron doesn't work, so can't share screen in Slack. Googled, known issue. I don't care how much better Wayland is...if it can't do something I'm used to and need, it's going in the trash. I don't have time or interest to read mailing lists and bug trackers to know when it's fixed.

So Slack didn't bother building with `rtc_use_pipewi­re=true` and that's Wayland's problem? Complain to Slack.

Support from popular apps absolutely is a problem for the platform. It might not be caused by them, but it is their problem. The user doesn't care who's fault it is, they're just going to go with the combination which works for them.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#602

Post by cycloptic »

ddingus wrote: post #580
cycloptic wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you know this, but memory perf and stability are secondary to supporting the hard business requirements. For low-cost products intended for mass consumption, a small feature that brings in millions of new users from a new audience is usually going to be more worth it to the business than optimizing for old hardware that doesn't bring in money anymore.

Those problems have crept up into new hardware, and depending on the product, "old" may be more than a decade, because users do not need new hardware and increasing numbers of them know that. Memory performance is not too big of a deal, IMHO given the last decade of hardware, but stability is. Lost mental state is generally as painful as data is. People hate it viscerally. I have seen 4 figure software get replaced b…

That's great when the feature set you're talking about has already been validated by the market. When it's not, it's a mistake to focus on that. I believe we call that "premature optimization."

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#603

Post by Miraste »

cycloptic wrote: post #559
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah seriously. The Gnome project is go-to example of non-ad-driven user-hostile FOSS software development.

I have no idea why it has become so common on here to dog on GNOME for being "user-hostile" because they targeted a different kind of user than the average HN engineer/startup person. You can use one of the "GNOME 2 revival" type desktop environments if that's your fancy.

That's their justification, but put a non-technical user in front of a gnome system and you will find nothing but confusion. It doesn't operate like any other OS GUI, nor is it intuitive or discoverable, nor does it have feature parity. They must be designing gnome for someone, but I don't know who.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#604

Post by yongjik »

dancek wrote: post #342
Miraste wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience Gnome is the worst major FOSS project for this. Ever since Gnome 3 the design philosophy of all of their projects seems to be "find out what the users want and do the opposite."

I've heard this from a couple of power users before. But maybe GNOME does not optimize for power users?

For example, GNOME doesn't support session save out of box. I think it's an incredibly helpful feature, especially for beginners - but maybe GNOME developers simply know that, deep down, all of us yearn for a clean blank slate whenever we restart our box, and showing the apps we've been using five minutes ago will only confuse our brain.

Also it doesn't even show hibernate button on the "start menu" (or whatever it's called these days) - because apparently the ability to actually power down the box while keeping all states is too confusing to have!

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#605

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

ddevault wrote: post #574
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, so he writes an article about people being assholes about him not writing free extra stuff, and this other article saying literally “nvidia- fuck you” (and its “shitty consumers”) for not writing this other free extra stuff. He says that’s treating Linux users like shit, when a massive part of nvidia’s business is supporting Linux (GPGPU stuff), which works fantastically. Reading OP, I figured it was righteously…

Author here. >so he writes an article about people being assholes about him not writing free extra stuff I did write that extra free stuff, and I'm arguing that some people are being assholes because they perpetuate the lie that I didn't do the free work, and because feature "foo" doesn't work, project bar must be bad. But feature "foo" does work, and using that falsehood to say project "bar" is bad is a dick move. T…

You and I are reading the criticism differently. There’s genuine assholery, 100%. You’re entirely right that those people just make everything worse, and I’m sorry let you have to deal with them.

The other side of things is what I see differently. When folks are saying wayland isn’t ready, or even that it sucks, I mostly see them as referring to the ecosystem, not wayland itself. It’s an unfortunate quirk of language. Because foo doesn’t work, the bar ecosystem is currently bad.

On the nvidia side, I’m not going to engage further with you on that because you called me a shitty consumer and that pisses me off. Fuck me, you don’t want me in your userbase anyways, right?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#606

Post by kodah »

caaqil wrote: post #572
_ktx2 wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drew Devault is an interesting character. I find some of the ways he chooses to express himself to be pretty poor most of the time . That said, Drew does come from a place of genuine caring, erratic, divisive, and brusque opinions aside. You just have to learn to filter out most of the useless anger and frustration he tends to speak with. All that to say, nvidia doesn't really do the work to play ball in Linux with W…

> You just have to learn to filter out most of the useless anger and frustration he tends to speak with. Or, here is a wild idea, we stop looking for some "wisdom" in what people who often express themselves this poorly write. Most of what this "thought leader" writes that I happened to read have the same punchline, and it got old pretty fast. Sometimes, stuff is just garbage. You don't have to look through 99% of th…

I definitely understand that it's difficult to listen to people like this. If you feel that way, my recommendation is don't engage with his content. I certainly don't recommend Drew Devault's writing or projects to anyone precisely because of this. That said, I do still listen to him because that vitriol and frustration does seem to come from a good place and genuine frustration.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#607

Post by rvolosatovs »

BoysenberryPi wrote: post #106
creata wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's not too much trouble, can you list the software you use which doesn't work on Wayland?

No problem, the biggest ones I tried were Godot, Krita, and Steam. Godot does not run on Wayland although support seems to be planned somewhere down the pipeline. Krita "runs" on Wayland but a lot of the features do not work nor does pen support last time I checked. Steam just doesn't work. Edit: A commenter on this thread mentioned Emacs. I have not tried that as I have recently switched to Emacs but if that is true…

Godot and Steam work perfectly fine on Wayland.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#608

Post by ddevault »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #605
ddevault wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here. >so he writes an article about people being assholes about him not writing free extra stuff I did write that extra free stuff, and I'm arguing that some people are being assholes because they perpetuate the lie that I didn't do the free work, and because feature "foo" doesn't work, project bar must be bad. But feature "foo" does work, and using that falsehood to say project "bar" is bad is a dick move. T…

You and I are reading the criticism differently. There’s genuine assholery, 100%. You’re entirely right that those people just make everything worse, and I’m sorry let you have to deal with them. The other side of things is what I see differently. When folks are saying wayland isn’t ready, or even that it sucks, I mostly see them as referring to the ecosystem, not wayland itself. It’s an unfortunate quirk of language…

>I’m out going to engage further with you on that because you called me a shitty consumer and that pisses me off. Fuck me, you don’t want me in your userbase anyways, right?

Yeah. Nvidia is engaging in shitty behavior, and I've outlined my argument for this. It's shitty to reward this behavior by buying their thousand-dollar GPUs. And, yes, I think that doing so anyway makes you a shitty consumer. And, yes, I don't want you in my userbase if you've made that decision. It's not my problem when shit breaks for you because of that.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#609

Post by jyxent »

roel_v wrote: post #285
fullstop wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that it's a bug in Chrome / Chromium since other applications are just fine even when Chrome is being dog slow.

If every other compositor/desktop system/whatever it is, is running fine, but not with Wayland, then how is it a Chrome 'bug'?

https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=112178...

Chrome regressed on Wayland after changing the default rendering path on Linux. The slowness seems to be a problem in getting proper vsync, and there are multiple cases where it was/is causing issues.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#610

Post by cycloptic »

Miraste wrote: post #603
cycloptic wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea why it has become so common on here to dog on GNOME for being "user-hostile" because they targeted a different kind of user than the average HN engineer/startup person. You can use one of the "GNOME 2 revival" type desktop environments if that's your fancy.

That's their justification, but put a non-technical user in front of a gnome system and you will find nothing but confusion. It doesn't operate like any other OS GUI, nor is it intuitive or discoverable, nor does it have feature parity. They must be designing gnome for someone, but I don't know who.

I don't know, last time I tried stock Ubuntu I found it to be pretty similar to current macOS with the launchpad and mission control. In any case, the answer to those problems you're describing would be more and more breaking changes, not less.
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