I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#771

Post by folkrav » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #503

folkrav wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd probably get the same question from a plumber if you asked him how to plug a pipe in a non-intuitive way. He has no way to know your pipes are laid out in a strange way, and the only spot you have left to add said junction without redoing your plumbing is back there - unless you tell him. Sure, some people are assholes, but that's just people. Nobody's in your mind, they can't guess your requirements, thought p…

> You'd probably get the same question from a plumber if you asked him how to plug a pipe in a non-intuitive way. He has no way to know your pipes are laid out in a strange way, and the only spot you have left to add said junction without redoing your plumbing is back there - unless you tell him. Sure, but if I told a plumber they'd understand and help me find a solution to my problem. That isn't what happens on Stac…

Ah, yeah, StackOverflow is kind of a beast of its own.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#772

Post by PurpleFoxy » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

vaylian wrote: post #104

MartijnBraam wrote: post #2

I'm not even a wayland developer and I get annoyed by all the posts about wayland not working, I've been running it for years and it Just Works(tm) for me aside from the occasional gotcha.

As someone who has no experience with Wayland: What are the telltale signs that a problem is related to Wayland and not the application itself? I've gotten curious. I want to try Wayland in the near future. But it would be good to have an idea of what kind of issues I might encounter, so that I can change back to X11 in an emergency.

So far every single complaint I have seen about wayland is something that wayland actually supports but that a specific program hasn’t been updated to use yet.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#773

Post by folkrav » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

regularfry wrote: post #496

folkrav wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd probably get the same question from a plumber if you asked him how to plug a pipe in a non-intuitive way. He has no way to know your pipes are laid out in a strange way, and the only spot you have left to add said junction without redoing your plumbing is back there - unless you tell him. Sure, some people are assholes, but that's just people. Nobody's in your mind, they can't guess your requirements, thought p…

In my experience, "why would you want to do that" is dismissive, defensive gatekeeping, typically used to imply that the questioner is an idiot, whereas "why do you want to do that" extracts a reason, bad or not, that can be worked with.

I'm fairly active on the Python slack channel, and this very question comes up really often when people ask for help, and in my experience, is basically never meant as disrespectful.

As for the small differences in semantics, I'm not a native speaker, neither have outright negative connotations to me, but I feel like getting tripped up on such a small thing - and simultaneously assuming the interlocutor's intentions - is kind of overblown.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#774

Post by PurpleFoxy » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

bluefox wrote: post #3

People using software that breaks with Wayland keep to their existing window system. News at X11.

No one minds what you use, it’s the people who go online and post complete lies about what wayland is and what it is capable of. And then they feel entitled to tell other people that they are wasting their time on wayland instead of working on X12.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#775

Post by PurpleFoxy » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 10:12 PM UTC

red_trumpet wrote: post #545

ceronman wrote: post #510

I'm writing this from my Fedora laptop where Wayland works extremely well. I want to say thank you to all the developers behind it! I know that the process of moving to Wayland has been slow and hard. It is definitely not an easy task. I know it's frustrating when something that used to work does not any more. I know the process is not complete and there are still a few things that might not work well. But for god sa…

> If you think that X is better, just use it, and live with its unfixable issues. Out of curiosity: What are those issues with X? On my day to day use of Xubuntu I don't encounter any problems. What would I gain from switching to Wayland?

When you plug your laptop in to a 4K screen it sets the 4K screen at 200% scale and the laptop at 100%. When you move windows over the screen border they switch scale. On X you either have to pick one scale or have windows die and be spawned again on the next screen

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#776

Post by stevepike » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 10:12 PM UTC

zamadatix wrote: post #642

stevepike wrote: post #488

Ok, here is my use case that wayland doesn't work for. I have an AMD graphics card (5700xt) and two 4k screens. I want to run firefox, chrome, emacs, and a terminal. Using KDE or Sway, if I set my desktop scaling to 2x, all programs that run through XWayland have extremely blurry display (they've been rendered at 1x and then crudely scaled up). This includes firefox, chrome, and emacs. The browsers have ongoing work…

Not sure about emacs but Chrome and Firefox can run under Wayland native these days though still a bit off from them using it on a default launch I think. As for the general workaround you landed on that kind of approach is probably still the best approach at the moment. You can also set the scaling algorithm to something else (I prefer nearest neighbor) if that helps any. There was a PR to support setting X hidpi fo…

Is the scaling algorithm specific to the wayland implementation? I saw a github thread about configuring it in sway but wasn't able to find anything about KWIN. I'd also love a flag to just disable scaling on a per-xwayland-app basis (so I could use the --force-device-scale-factor hack) but couldn't figure out how to do that so if you know something off the top of your head it'd really help out.

Anyway thanks for the tip!

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#777

Post by cycloptic » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #769

cycloptic wrote: post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are saying is a borderline conspiracy theory and is not true. GNOME still works outside of systemd, and the distributions that want to use it outside of systemd are maintaining the parts that they need, which in reality are pretty small. (I can give some more technical details if you want, but the short answer is: elogind)

Maybe things have improved over the last several years, now that systemd is fait accompli. Earlier on in its life I recall discussions of GNOME features that would only work on Linux+systemd, and the BSDs were complaining. But the point remains that, even without any ill intent, the lack of competition and compromise can produce outcomes that look like malice -- people gradually get used to making decisions that go u…

I remember that too and the main issue was that BSD didn't have an answer to logind and it took them a while to port later versions of GNOME 3 because of it. You can't seriously expect Red Hat or some other Linux distribution to drop everything and figure out the best way to get new features to work on all the BSDs before they release something, that's something only the BSD developers can do. If the "dog" here is supposed to be BSD, the wagging is not working on them.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#778

Post by PurpleFoxy » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

varbhat wrote: post #228

kevincox wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, didn't it make that security claim irrelevant because each window can access the screen? No, because these APIs allow the user to audit the requests and allow or deny. You could have a default-allow policy and get back to the X security but most implementations ask you to confirm first.

Ok. Thanks for the Information. But,last time i tried Wayland (sway to be specific) , it didn't ask me to allow/deny ,ie, no audit was present.

It’s more of a future feature. Until we have most things sandboxed with SELinux there isn’t a whole lot of point adding a permissions dialog. But all of this work pays off in the future when Linux can match macOS in security.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#779

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

codethief wrote: post #596

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, so he writes an article about people being assholes about him not writing free extra stuff, and this other article saying literally “nvidia- fuck you” (and its “shitty consumers”) for not writing this other free extra stuff. He says that’s treating Linux users like shit, when a massive part of nvidia’s business is supporting Linux (GPGPU stuff), which works fantastically. Reading OP, I figured it was righteously…

> when a massive part of nvidia’s business is supporting Linux (GPGPU stuff) I've spent the last few months doing GPGPU stuff on Nvidia Jetson devices and my experience has been the complete opposite. I've rarely seen something with such bad support and documentation.

I'd love to hear more. I've only used the datacenter and flagship consumer GPUs, which work great. I hadn't heard of Jetson, but looking it up, it's a bummer to hear that something that looks that cool for hobbies doesn't hold up.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#780

Post by ddingus » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 10:15 PM UTC

cycloptic wrote: post #744

ddingus wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let them. That's what I do. And I do that because someone, somewhere will pay now, or pay later. Maybe the customer finds someone hungry enough to pay for them. Or, maybe that customer pays hard going through this cycle a few times too. Not my problem and it does not have to be yours.

To be clear, I was mostly referring to low-or-zero-cost products mentioned previously like gmail, outlook or excel, or any random zero-cost piece of open source you can download on github. If you depend on that stuff then it is your problem, that's a signal that you won't pay the extra cost for stability. The businesses that can afford the extra stability are not using the consumer offering, they pay Google/Microsoft…

They are making total bank on those things. And the users are paying, just not with dollars.

Can definitely be robust and should be.

In this scenario, it is a mutual problem. Nobody has to use the software, true. However, it again is all about managing expectations.

If it is oversold, people will end up with bad experiences and that does impact who delivered them.

This has already happened. Will again too.

On a short timeline, maybe no big. On a longer one, higher order impacts may actually be painful.

Say a decade of negative public sentiment sees a brutal regulation kind of painful.

Entities putting billions in the bank can and should make reliable software.

There is a YUGE diff between Gmail, Excel and friends, and rando OSS.

This discussion ranged far away from the initial premise.

So, let us take it back a bit.

Weyland. Wants to be the defacto display solution. Does not have the same priorities many users have. Also does have priorities many users have.

Replacing X11 was made an explicit intent too.

Well, if it does not actually do that?

"All that Weyland shit talk" is the outcome.

Maybe subtract the replace X11 part, or maybe find a way to actually replace X11, or maybe just ignore the shit talk?