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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#661

Post by kaba0 »

irishsultan wrote: post #534
cycloptic wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security is one of the major reasons, and this is indeed a privileged operation that should not be accessible by all clients. The other reason is that this isn't base functionality, for example an embedded implementation has no need for screenshots.

> The other reason is that this isn't base functionality, for example an embedded implementation has no need for screenshots. I'm unsure what kind of graphical environment you can imagine where screenshots are not useful at all (if only to capture the screen when something weird is going on).

Car navigation panels where Wayland is already used?

Also, screen sharing is not that easy of a problem if done properly (eg. allowing another app to act on the buffer and directing it here and there)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#662

Post by zamadatix »

jlbooker wrote: post #656

Can it support screen sharing yet, out of the box?

Pipewire works for "screen" sharing (not window/monitor sharing, screen sharing) and Firefox/Chrome support it. That being said I'd still say "give it more time" before I'd say "screen sharing is solved" at the moment.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#663

Post by wing-_-nuts »

cycloptic wrote: post #655
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #626

The biggest beef I have with wayland is it's security model. Ok, you don't want to let other applications listen to keystrokes, record the screen, etc, by default? Fine. There should be some low level implementation that pops up a box asking the user if they wish to allow that app to do that, not outright breaking the practice! Wayland feels like some ivy tower academic's ideal of what a display system should be. Eve…

>There should be some low level implementation that pops up a box asking the user if they wish to allow that app to do that I'm not sure what you mean. This is actually exactly what is being done in GNOME and KDE's wayland implementations.

There should be some base implementation of wayland (wlroots?), and this sort of thing should happen there.

I just disagree with the whole concept that a desktop environment, window manager, or whatever else has to change because the underlying display server changes. That should be fully transparent. It seems to me that these guys have handed way too much off to the desktop / window manager, washed their hands of it and said 'deal with it'.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#664

Post by vetinari »

pmlnr wrote: post #377
robert_foss wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVidia is broken, not Wayland. They refuse to implement the same APIs as everyone other driver does. Wayland is 10 years old, and extremely stable. If it isn't working properly it's either your driver vendor or your desktop environment that is to blame.

... ... Really? "Us, open source devs demans nvidia to alter their ways". And you wonder why people are disappointed in wayland?

Imagine this: Microsoft demands that Nvidia uses WDDM for their drivers. Otherwise DirectX would not work with Nvidia.

Do you thing Nvidia would ignore them, like they ignore Linux?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#665

Post by dang »

zzz143 wrote: post #129
gspr wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a pretty broad statement, good luck with that attitude! Luckily, DeVault is an insanely prolific writer of actual code, so there's no need to evaluate his attitude. His code speaks for itself.

[flagged]

Please don't use HN for personal attack, no matter how strongly you disagree with someone. We're trying for something else in this community.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#666

Post by vetinari »

BoysenberryPi wrote: post #106
creata wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's not too much trouble, can you list the software you use which doesn't work on Wayland?

No problem, the biggest ones I tried were Godot, Krita, and Steam. Godot does not run on Wayland although support seems to be planned somewhere down the pipeline. Krita "runs" on Wayland but a lot of the features do not work nor does pen support last time I checked. Steam just doesn't work. Edit: A commenter on this thread mentioned Emacs. I have not tried that as I have recently switched to Emacs but if that is true…

> Steam just doesn't work.

Steam works fine. What exactly doesn't work for you?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#667

Post by kaba0 »

bitwize wrote: post #520
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> Wayland's biggest mistakes were not launching with a coherent strategy for replicating functionality like screen sharing, screenshots, and to a lesser extent remote desktop/applications. It's not just about replicating this functionality. It's about having an open framework that makes building these tools, and other unforeseen tools, easy. X11 was very accommodating of this. For example, I like to run xsnow during…

There is nothing fundamentally difficult about goddamn snow, like transparent windows are a thing in wayland, full screen overlays are supported in some compozitors, so feel free to port it over if this is really the ultimate thing you need in life?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#668

Post by bitwize »

cycloptic wrote: post #634
bitwize wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wayland's biggest mistakes were not launching with a coherent strategy for replicating functionality like screen sharing, screenshots, and to a lesser extent remote desktop/applications. It's not just about replicating this functionality. It's about having an open framework that makes building these tools, and other unforeseen tools, easy. X11 was very accommodating of this. For example, I like to run xsnow during…

I'm not sure what are the changes in the X11 server implementation you're talking about, but if they do indeed meet every single possible use case, then maybe someone can bring them over to Wayland? I'm sorry to say, but you have to acknowledge these are novelty applications and are really not driving progress right now, the main focus is in getting all the other applications to work. FYI there is some prior art for…

The X11 server changes would involve isolating clients by default, keeping them unaware of windows they did not create themselves... but allowing a whitelist of trusted clients that can see everything.

This is inimical to the design principles of Wayland, whose security policy is to isolate all clients -- no exceptions, no escape.

The 1984 Mac was largely a novelty, but it was one that demonstrated possibilities. There are non-novelty applications that are precluded by Wayland. Something like EXWM could not be done. You cannot write a standalone virtual-desktop switcher, it must be integrated into the compositor. Et weary cetera. Wayland is very opinionated about the kinds of programs you can write for it, and if you want to go beyond that you must traverse the step function into "write your own compositor".

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#669

Post by bitwize »

kaba0 wrote: post #667
bitwize wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wayland's biggest mistakes were not launching with a coherent strategy for replicating functionality like screen sharing, screenshots, and to a lesser extent remote desktop/applications. It's not just about replicating this functionality. It's about having an open framework that makes building these tools, and other unforeseen tools, easy. X11 was very accommodating of this. For example, I like to run xsnow during…

There is nothing fundamentally difficult about goddamn snow, like transparent windows are a thing in wayland, full screen overlays are supported in some compozitors, so feel free to port it over if this is really the ultimate thing you need in life?

Ah, but xsnow accumulates on your windows! Wayland clients are not allowed to know about other clients' window layout!

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#670

Post by cycloptic »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #663
cycloptic wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There should be some low level implementation that pops up a box asking the user if they wish to allow that app to do that I'm not sure what you mean. This is actually exactly what is being done in GNOME and KDE's wayland implementations.

There should be some base implementation of wayland (wlroots?), and this sort of thing should happen there. I just disagree with the whole concept that a desktop environment, window manager, or whatever else has to change because the underlying display server changes. That should be fully transparent. It seems to me that these guys have handed way too much off to the desktop / window manager, washed their hands of it…

In wlroots they probably won't implement it because that requires a GUI toolkit and they don't want to depend on any particular toolkit.

The push behind wayland happened specifically because the desktop environments wanted to implement their own display server, and it was becoming problematic to try to make it happen transparently. It's actually somewhat of the reverse of what you're saying, desktop environments can only wash their hands of things and push them off to the X server for so long before it becomes untenable.

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