I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#641

Post by kaba0 » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #126

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

The fact that has gone on more than seven years and Wayland is not mainstream is exactly what the problem is. It seems impossible that it will be ready for use before it is hopelessly obsolete (e.g. Windows and MacOS will be beaming images straight into your brain or something.)

Or you know, development on Linux is not cathedral but bazaar based, and they can’t just say “this is the new display protocol”. And until a critical mass is achieved noone will even start porting apps over, and all that.

Wayland is (fortunately) coming, but changing a whole ecosystem is not a small feat (even with the great backward compatibility with XWayland, because unmaintained apps will never port)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#642

Post by zamadatix » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

stevepike wrote: post #488

Ok, here is my use case that wayland doesn't work for. I have an AMD graphics card (5700xt) and two 4k screens. I want to run firefox, chrome, emacs, and a terminal. Using KDE or Sway, if I set my desktop scaling to 2x, all programs that run through XWayland have extremely blurry display (they've been rendered at 1x and then crudely scaled up). This includes firefox, chrome, and emacs. The browsers have ongoing work…

Not sure about emacs but Chrome and Firefox can run under Wayland native these days though still a bit off from them using it on a default launch I think. As for the general workaround you landed on that kind of approach is probably still the best approach at the moment. You can also set the scaling algorithm to something else (I prefer nearest neighbor) if that helps any. There was a PR to support setting X hidpi for XWayland but it got held up somewhere in XWayland stuff apparently.

Definitely a painful use case combination still but one that should solve itself once things actually start using Wayland rather than XWayland.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#643

Post by nailer » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

SEJeff wrote: post #191

The author is kind of a jerk. He complains that users don't like wayland when he entirely and wholesale rejects anyone who wants to use an nvidia graphics card. Maintainers with attitudes like this are why we can't have nice things: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html Sadly, the OSS driver doesn't support the 4k monitors I use for work well enough to actually use day to day. So my option is to use…

Re: NVIDIA, announced on Jan 7:

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NVIDIA-G...

> This work will hopefully land in time for the start of standalone XWayland releases separate from the xorg-server. Those should begin this spring in time for the Fedora 34 release as likely the first distribution shipping standalone XWayland packages.

> With this and other NVIDIA proprietary driver work pending to improve the Wayland support, hopefully by Ubuntu 21.10 we see GNOME on Wayland by the default so that for Ubuntu 22.04 LTS is also that shift away from X.Org.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#644

Post by phkahler » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 6:47 PM UTC

foldr wrote: post #368

phkahler wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> To be honest I don’t see how you can understand the first bit but not the second. Yes, they can make changes that you don’t like without consulting you. People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything. Yes, peop…

>People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything. They're not pretending. I'm afraid you're laboring under a misconception. Nothing obliges the GNOME team to accede to the wishes of people who contribute nothing to…

>> Nothing obliges the GNOME team to accede to the wishes of people who contribute nothing to the project.

I said nothing of the sort. They have an obligation to the project and its value as a piece of infrastructure used by many (including noncontributors).

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#645

Post by kaba0 » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 6:47 PM UTC

cat199 wrote: post #591

cturner wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is reasonable to want remote desktop access. I am unfamiliar with the RDP technique you raise, but expect it could be achieved through VNC or similar systems. X-Windows is itself a weak response to remote access. I have memories of trying to use Oracle Forms over a modem connection to uni, and finding it far inferior to VNC connections to work systems - effectively unusable. The remote-windowing mechanisms of X-Wi…

this is sort of exactly my point but inverse - X windows is awesome on a lan & due to the 'native' support for individual applications, but there is definately huge room for improvement w/r/t display protocol performance / latency issues which are largely a result of relying on X server drawing architecture don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, in other words

But this is the thing, X is not network transparent anymore. Basically no app created in the last decade use the native rendering libs of x, and thus what happens over the network (moving bitmaps) is much worse than what a decent video streaming algorithm could do.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#646

Post by ChiefOBrien » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

zamadatix wrote: post #632

ChiefOBrien wrote: post #578

I'm tired of this pro-Wayland horseshit You have been trying to reinvent the wheel for a decade and splitting the whole community on petty shit like this, halving development effort on an already non-popular platform, and yet you wonder why people are angry. Instead of evolving X11 and deprecating old features to drop tech debt over time, you went and created your snowflake project and paraded over how much more secu…

Eh, if a bunch of X11 devs were tired enough of X11 they decided to drop it for working on Wayland I'm not upset at them for working on what they want to work on rather than what I want them to work on. I'll gladly take reinventing the wheel every 30 years over people dropping out altogether, though if they want to that's fine it's their own time and energy. If they did it for their own reasons instead of the communi…

It's not just wayland. For every single thing you can do on linux there exists several hundred different implementations/projects with the same goal of do that thing, and it has led to bad cohesion between system components. Even Microsoft couldn't figure out how to drop Win32 and introduce other safer environments without alienating everyone. How can we expect Linux to survive and become better if we treat everything in it with such a garbage attitude.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#647

Post by kaba0 » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

andrewprock wrote: post #409

cturner wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remote windowing is a legacy of the era when universities ran dozens of dumb terminals from a server. It would be bizarre to pursue that in an era of hardware-accelerated graphics. If the Wayland design was weighed down by such things, it could never hope to be progress.

This ignores the current tend of hosted gaming services. The pendulum regularly swings back and forth between thin and fat clients as cost and innovation evolve.

There is no reason for a display protocol to know about these things. At most it is responsible for giving access to a window’s/screen’s buffer and then any app can do whatever they want with it, eg compress it and stream it (which as I wrote in an other topic is usually better performing than today’s frameworks over whatever remained of X remoting, with bitmap transfers and the like)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#648

Post by zamadatix » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

metalliqaz wrote: post #19

Now that was a proper rant. I use Windows so I have no skin in the game, but that was a good read.

I've really come to appreciate Window's DWM these last couple of years. Per monitor true fractional DPI, per monitor refresh rate, and HDR/WCG. The only other platform that has it this good is Android.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#649

Post by phkahler » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

DCKing wrote: post #322

phkahler wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> What you're observing is not "Wayland not being there yet", it's Gnome not being there yet. All of these deficiencies have nothing to do with Wayland itself. While technically true, that is a bit of deflection. In some cases none of the compositors have implemented certain things yet. My biggest issue with gnome is that it doesnt remember where my windows were last time I ran an app. Someone over in way-land proba…

> While technically true, that is a bit of deflection. In some cases none of the compositors have implemented certain things yet. Deflection is entirely my point here :) These things are real problems, but they should be fixed in Gnome/KDE/Sway/wherever you find them. Complaints should be addressed there, and not at "Wayland", because "Wayland" can't fix em!

Agreed, but my point was they could have made more clear how the line was moving relative to what they were used to. Maybe they did and it's just an issue of resources.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#650

Post by SEJeff » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #526

SEJeff wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CUDA is primarily developed for Linux. You’re showing me that you totally misunderstand the problem by assuming Nvidia doesn’t build these GPUs for Linux. There is a reason that Nvidia gpus + Linux servers top the top 500 supercomputer list. It is because they’re built to work together:

Nvidia supports exactly one use case on Linux: running their GPUs in servers or workstations purely with their proprietary drivers purely for ML and CAD work. Everything else is completely unsupported, and if you’ve got an issue with that, you’ve got to complain to Nvidia, not open source projects. You expect a single unpaid volunteer maintaining a wayland compositor alone to somehow be able to add support for nvidia…

"Guy who tells me I'm an idiot for using hardware to do my job also says he is tired of users not wanting to use wayland" - I think he should read the book "How to win friends and influence people", because telling people they are idiots for using hardware they have to use and then complaining they don't want to use his stuff is pretty hilarious and pathetic.

I'm not asking him to suddenly love Nvidia, but there has to be some compromise here. Nvidia works wonderfully on linux for desktop + x11 (with 4 x 4k monitors mind you) and for CUDA. I'd love for the nvidia proprietary drivers to support wayland, but I'm also tired of his hyperbole about bad users who don't want to use wayland.