I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#401

Post by arepublicadoceu » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

seabird wrote: post #301

It's really rich when these types get riled up about software having very obvious flaws. I respect the author and really want to like Wayland, but there's big things missing. I recently installed Fedora after my Windows install bombed out after an update. I went to play World of Warcraft with my buddies and found that the mouse handling in Wayland was pretty severely broken, at least for WoW. You move by clicking bot…

You can't play World of Warcraft well under wine and you call this one of your two big things?

The second being, screen sharing broken for you. Well, for me it works really well, maybe you didn't google hard enough?

Now I suggest you to google extremely hard on how to make x11 handle displays with mixed DPI. A way more common usecase than running World of Warcraft though a compatibility layer AKA Wine. If you find a good enough answer please reply.

I do have an NVIDIA card which forces me to restart my session on x11 everytime I need to play a game because of NVIDIA xenanigans. And everytime I finish playing the game I QUICKLY move out of the mess that is x11.

Linux is made of compromises. And While I'm in the low end of being screwed by wayland (have an optimus laptop) I vastly prefer my wayland user session than x11.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#402

Post by pmoriarty » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

creata wrote: post #50

BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

If it's not too much trouble, can you list the software you use which doesn't work on Wayland?

It's a couple of years old, but this post on "Why I'm not going to switch to Wayland yet."[1] summarizes some of the concerns I have about switching to Wayland:

"at the moment there are several types of applications that not only don't work in wayland, but would be very difficult, or impossible to work natively in all major wayland compositors.

Examples (in order of importance to me):

  * Programmatic output configuration (xrandr, arandr, etc.)
  * CLI clipboard access (xsel, xclip)
  * Third party app launcher/window switcher (rofi, dmenu, albert, docky).
  * Clipboard managers (parcellite, klipper, Gpaste, clipman, etc.)
  * Third party screen shot/capture/share (shutter, OBS, ffmpeg, import, peek, scrot, VNC, etc.)
  * Color picker (gpick, gcolor3, kcolorchooser)
  * xdotool

Until Wayland has all these (and more) and they are as stable and feature-rich as the existing apps on X, I will not willingly switch to Wayland.

PS: ydotool has been touted as an equivalent of xdotool, but ydotool has only a tiny fraction of the features of xdotool.

And it's unlikely that it'll get much better any time soon, as its README says:

"Since Jun, 2019, I have little time to maintain this project"

wtype is supposed to be another equivalent to xdotool, but it has even less features than ydotool.

If the rest of Wayland's X equivalents as feature poor as these, I don't hold out much hope for Wayland in the near future.

[1] - https://old.reddit.com/r/wayland/comments/85q78y/why_im_not_...

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#403

Post by zamadatix » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

leephillips wrote: post #367

I use dwm and X11. I don’t use a “desktop” and never will. I only use one monitor, and don’t care about screen sharing. X11 works fine for me in almost all respects—the exception is some applications drawing some of their text too small on my high-resolution screen. Is there any reason for me to know about Wayland?

Wayland gives a better way for those apps to draw on high resolution displays appropriately and at worst case if they don't know about Wayland they draw all the same as now via XWayland anyways. Ddevault actually created sway which is a Wayland i3 clone so his workflow probably wasn't all that different from yours on dwm.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#404

Post by senko » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

silisili wrote: post #150

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

Agreed. Tried Wayland again last year. Screen sharing in Electron doesn't work, so can't share screen in Slack. Googled, known issue. I don't care how much better Wayland is...if it can't do something I'm used to and need, it's going in the trash. I don't have time or interest to read mailing lists and bug trackers to know when it's fixed.

... sounds like you should complain to Slack?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#405

Post by rakoo » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

gnulinux wrote: post #204

DCKing wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

Why does this distinction matter? Gnome on X works perfectly fine, Gnome on Wayland does not. Why does it matter it to state that Wayland is a protocol, not the implementation?

Because Gnome on Wayland might not work, but maybe KDE on Wayland does or "i3 on Wayland" aka sway does. That's like saying "I tried switching to Linux but it doesn't work" because you couldn't make the dropbox client run. The protocol (linux ABI) works, but the implementation (dropbox on linux) doesn't.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#406

Post by webkike » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

voldacar wrote: post #325

> a blithe rejection of facts to embrace a narrative of victimization by a vague authority actually I am victimized by the extra frame of latency. cool rant though

Wayland adds a frame of latency? Do you have a source on this (no skin on this game just really want to find out more about this)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#407

Post by Shared404 » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

ragnese wrote: post #361

Shared404 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always found systemd to be fine (I'm not a sysadmin, just prefer Linux on my PCs). I mostly agree, although I prefer OpenRC personally. I was bit by [* ] Stopping service 1:30 remaining too many times to really like SystemD, although I tolerate it on my daily driver these days.

What does OpenRC do for stopping services before shutdown? Does it just have a shorter wait time by default?

I don't know, because it hasn't come up. It's Just Worked (tm) thus far.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#408

Post by betterunix2 » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

foldr wrote: post #368

phkahler wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> To be honest I don’t see how you can understand the first bit but not the second. Yes, they can make changes that you don’t like without consulting you. People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything. Yes, peop…

>People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything. They're not pretending. I'm afraid you're laboring under a misconception. Nothing obliges the GNOME team to accede to the wishes of people who contribute nothing to…

"Nothing obliges the GNOME team to accede to the wishes of people who contribute nothing to the project"

Nothing, until users flee and they stop receiving bug reports, patches, donations, and so forth. Moreover, because of what Gnome is, if they drive users away it will also negatively impact other projects, because for a lot of those users leaving Gnome means ditching open source software entirely and switching to e.g. OS X.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#409

Post by andrewprock » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

cturner wrote: post #276

cat199 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my admittedly somewhat distanced opinion, Wayland's biggest mistakes were not launching with a coherent strategy for replicating functionality like screen sharing, screenshots, and to a lesser extent remote desktop/applications. They just punted and said "that's a compositor problem!" as though that was supposed to make it ok. People have thus harbored some inherent resentment ever since. agree 1000% - really do…

Remote windowing is a legacy of the era when universities ran dozens of dumb terminals from a server. It would be bizarre to pursue that in an era of hardware-accelerated graphics. If the Wayland design was weighed down by such things, it could never hope to be progress.

This ignores the current tend of hosted gaming services. The pendulum regularly swings back and forth between thin and fat clients as cost and innovation evolve.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#410

Post by ddevault » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:34 PM UTC

h_anna_h wrote: post #314

Since this is a new thread I will repost my question from the old one. Honest question by someone who wants to try out wayland, do steam, gog games, and wine games work on wayland well? What about things like obs?

Games: yes, albiet mostly through Xwayland, which is a compatibility layer. Most games Just Work through this compatibility layer. OBS works fine, but you need a plugin.

Caveat: this applies only to compositors based on wlroots, list of them here:

https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots/wiki/Projects-which-use-wl...

The most mature compositors from this list are sway, wayfire, hikari, and cage. YMMV with other Wayland compositors, and if you have issues with them, you should speak to them, but not blame Wayland in general. If you have Nvidia hardware, you will also have to use the nouveau driver, and YMMV with that, too. I recommend Intel or AMD GPUs, both companies are much more cooperative with the FOSS community.