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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#611

Post by Miraste »

betterunix2 wrote: post #563
dancek wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard this from a couple of power users before. But maybe GNOME does not optimize for power users?

What is a "power user?" Sounds like the same nonsense we hear from proprietary software vendors all the time, "That feature is for enterprise users." Gnome more or less optimizes for minimal configurability, the theory being that most users want the UI to be as clean as possible. They do not particularly care if someone would like to be able to change some annoying behavior, because they thought that behavior made se…

With apologies to Joseph Heller:

"There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one’s own UI in the face of flaws that were real and immediate was the process of a power user. Orr was an average user and could be listened to. All he had to do was write a feature request; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be an average user and would have to be ignored."

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#612

Post by zamadatix »

vetinari wrote: post #532
silisili wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Tried Wayland again last year. Screen sharing in Electron doesn't work, so can't share screen in Slack. Googled, known issue. I don't care how much better Wayland is...if it can't do something I'm used to and need, it's going in the trash. I don't have time or interest to read mailing lists and bug trackers to know when it's fixed.

So Slack didn't bother building with `rtc_use_pipewi­re=true` and that's Wayland's problem? Complain to Slack.

Pipewire is still 0.x as of today, let alone when they last tried it, so I don't think anybody should be going to Slack like they were too lazy to build it "right". Besides even if it was built with that the screensharing via pipewire isn't at feature parity with normal screen/monitor/window level sharing so it's not a 1:1 drop in quite yet.

Wayland said screen sharing is something to be solved outside of Wayland itself. That solution is still early and not complete. It's not anybody's problem, it's just how things are. It'll get fixed eventually, in the meantime X11 still runs fine for most users and in 6-12 months switching to Wayland should have fewer tradeoffs. Until then Wayland is missing some use cases X11 easy fulfills. Unfortunately X11 is also missing many use cases Wayland fills. As a result we should expect different users to be better served by different answers about how ready a Wayland environment is for them and both to be equally correct.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#613

Post by cgriswald »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #575
cortesoft wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your calculation doesn't take into account the time savings for brand new users. Since they don't have to unlearn anything, they start saving the time immediately. Not saying it is right or wrong, but a lot of the upsetting changes for existing users are for the benefit of new users.

We can start with the contention that that isn't true. Even for a new user, the change is going to bring with it a bunch of new bugs because the new code is new, and invalidate all of the solutions to problems that people can search for on the internet until the new thing is as old as the old thing (at which point somebody tries to replace it again). Also, "users" are "people" and the average adult lifespan (18-78) i…

> And then if the new users still want to use the old thing you've got a pretty good red flag that you messed it up.

Your new UI might be garbage, but there's no red flag here. A new user will likely need to make use of tutorials, troubleshooting, and other help online; most or all of which will be based on your old UI (and possibly coupled with comments like, 'Don't use the new UI, it's trash. Here is how to switch...'). Having been such a new user, I only pick the new UI when forced or when it's clearly better; the former being the more common case.

Sure, you can make your official documentation use the correct UI (or design your UI in such a way that the documentation can be agnostic—but then what is this big change that makes lives better?), but unless your documentation is very good, people are still going to need to reference all these other sources.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#614

Post by avereveard »

rkangel wrote: post #530
jjoonathan wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows patch auto-revert-settings is cancer. It breaks my bluetooth every time and my setup is very typical so it probably does it to millions of others. Details: Bluetooth headphones with microphones actually show up as 3 sound devices, one high quality output device and a pair of low quality input and output devices. Whenever a microphone is requested, the low quality pair is selected. Output quality goes to shit…

> Since many apps request microphone access for non-obvious reasons Interesting. I have what appears to be exactly the same bluetooth headset setup (Bose QuietComfort 35s), and use it all day every day while at work. I have the slightly annoying thing that if I'm in a video conference all normal audio isn't heard (unless I switch the default audio output), but I only get that when actively in a VC. I have never had '…

The Windows ecosystem is invisibly fragmented by the million policies that change depending on install version, tier and patch level and largely misunderstood.

See for example the pages of complaints about windows forced planned reboot features deemed unavoidable from the hn majority, let alone the common users.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#615

Post by ddevault »

btinker wrote: post #515

> Wayland works for almost everyone, and works for more people than is even possible with X11. Most of the lies you’ve heard about ways that it’s broken are just that: lies. And if you insist on living in that fantasy, then keep it to yourself, asshole. But it doesn't work for me (aka. important features are buggy in the gnome/wayland/whatever stack I am using if I select wayland in gdm). Am I now a lier or an unimpo…

>But it doesn't work for me (aka. important features are buggy in the gnome/wayland/whatever stack I am using if I select wayland in gdm).

GNOME doesn't work for you. GNOME uses Wayland, but the bugs you experienced are not the fault of Wayland. They're the fault of GNOME.

GNOME is a dumpster fire and its premature roll-out to Fedora, Ubuntu, etc was very badly done. None of that has any bearing on Wayland, except to fuel the flames for spiteful people who choose to use the botched GNOME roll-out to harass anyone who has anything to do with Wayland.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#616

Post by rootbear »

kuschku wrote: post #526
SEJeff wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CUDA is primarily developed for Linux. You’re showing me that you totally misunderstand the problem by assuming Nvidia doesn’t build these GPUs for Linux. There is a reason that Nvidia gpus + Linux servers top the top 500 supercomputer list. It is because they’re built to work together:

Nvidia supports exactly one use case on Linux: running their GPUs in servers or workstations purely with their proprietary drivers purely for ML and CAD work. Everything else is completely unsupported, and if you’ve got an issue with that, you’ve got to complain to Nvidia, not open source projects. You expect a single unpaid volunteer maintaining a wayland compositor alone to somehow be able to add support for nvidia…

More than CAD work. I'm a little out of the loop these days, but as of a few years ago, Nvidia cards were greatly preferred for all 3D work, including animation packages such as Maya. The Nouveau drivers just don't cut it for that sort of work.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#617

Post by ddevault »

perryizgr8 wrote: post #82
kuschku wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland improves: - Multi-Monitor support (especially with multiple different resolutions) - HiDPI support (even if some of your programs haven’t been updated for that yet) Now why does wayland break xclip and vnc? Because "every program is a keylogger by default and can see any event, look at the contents of any window" is a major security issue, especially as it means the entire security model of screen lockers or…

> Now why does wayland break xclip and vnc? Does it matter why? If I use VNC to do my work, it is absolutely impossible for me to switch to wayland, no matter how justified the reasons are.

No, it doesn't. What matters is that xclip and vnc aren't broken on Wayland. I mean, xclip is, but it's called xclip for a reason. The use-case is not broken, and is fulfilled instead by a tool called wl-clipboard.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#618

Post by jjoonathan »

avereveard wrote: post #614
rkangel wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since many apps request microphone access for non-obvious reasons Interesting. I have what appears to be exactly the same bluetooth headset setup (Bose QuietComfort 35s), and use it all day every day while at work. I have the slightly annoying thing that if I'm in a video conference all normal audio isn't heard (unless I switch the default audio output), but I only get that when actively in a VC. I have never had '…

The Windows ecosystem is invisibly fragmented by the million policies that change depending on install version, tier and patch level and largely misunderstood. See for example the pages of complaints about windows forced planned reboot features deemed unavoidable from the hn majority, let alone the common users.

I was on jury duty last week and watched a windows update slow-motion-trainwreck the proceedings for 30 minutes while 30-ish people sat there and waited on it.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#619

Post by rdsubhas »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

Critically speaking about Wayland for what Wayland is, reporting bugs, asking for enhancements, this is good. The author is not speaking about closing down the bug board or enhancement feedback.

But criticizing Wayland on a pure comparison basis, clinging on to Xorg server – absolutely doesn't benefit anyone, including whoever is posting it.

X window system (the idea) and Xorg server (the project) – is kind of abandonware [1] at this point. The last release was in 2018.

Don't want to get into random philosophy about contributing vs complaining vs criticizing, etc.

But in this situation – there's just a definitive community health benefit in moving on. Not complaining, not contributing, but just moving on. There is no further value left to be added in any comparison.

1: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=XServer-...

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#620

Post by ddevault »

_pmf_ wrote: post #220

> just to maintain that broken pile of shit. > It has a real cost, you know, being a dick to maintainers. Which way is it, chief?

There aren't any Xorg maintainers left. Xorg was abandoned, by its maintainers, because it's a broken pile of shit. Calling it a broken pile of shit is validating its (ex-)maintainers, not being a dick to them.
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