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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#181

Post by [deleted] »

Aardwolf wrote: post #164
kevincox wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry which modular unix philosophy is Wayland replacing? X wasn't modular except by the most generous definitions. X is a weird server that does way too many things and the window manager where the interesting logic was. These days the building blocks have been broken out allowing much more flexibility. If you think that the window manager was modular component you can basically pretend that wlroots is X and the com…

Being able to write bash scripts to automate mouse and keyboard is modular Being able to dump screenshots or process them in any other way, also again with bash scripts, is very modular Being able to debug parameters of X windows, etc...

[deleted]

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#182

Post by cycloptic »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

>In my admittedly somewhat distanced opinion, Wayland's biggest mistakes were not launching with a coherent strategy for replicating functionality like screen sharing, screenshots, and to a lesser extent remote desktop/applications. They just punted and said "that's a compositor problem!" as though that was supposed to make it ok.

I am not sure what you mean here. Weston, the original implementation, includes support for screenshots, screensharing and RDP. Other implementations decided to implement those in a different way, for various reasons. The way to not "punt" this would be to use libweston but that has its own set of issues, and it seems strange to blame the Weston hackers for not upstreaming every single other thing that some implementer is working on.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#183

Post by hnaccount141 »

Macha wrote: post #74
kuschku wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it doesn't apply to the linux desktop, yet. Microsoft has VSCode, Skype and Teams on linux, Zoom has a native linux client. With modern electron apps, often even being able to be updated remotely, you have to start treating more and more software as hostile as well. That said, even if you’d only have trustful software, you should still sandbox it, as if there’d be an RCE in a chat client you wouldn’t want the a…

If you don't trust VSCode, then don't use it. Or use vscodium. But if Microsoft wanted to be evil through VS Code, they could already do enough damage by just sending your projects to them, I would imagine.

It's not a question of trust, vulnerabilities can happen to anyone. Even if the devs at Microsoft were perfect (they aren't), all it takes is an rce in one of the libraries vscode depends on. (Like Chromium, which has happened before [0])

[0] https://www.electronjs.org/blog/chromium-rce-vulnerability

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#184

Post by spijdar »

kuschku wrote: post #14

I’m using a Dell UP2718Q (3840x2160, 144dpi, 60Hz) and a Fujitsu Siemens P17-2 (1024x1280, 96dpi, 75Hz) side by side, and without Wayland this setup isn’t even possible to get working properly. Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly. O…

Professional pentester here - Wayland alone doesn't really do much for you, security wise. It is still very possible for an application simply running under a wayland compositor to do lots of nasty things.

The Wayland protocol provides the building blocks for someone to create an Android-like sandboxed environment, but doing so would break every application. Snaps and Flatpak come closer, but still generally miss the mark, since many applications require your entire home directory to be bind mounted in their container.

Running wayland alone gets you very little in terms of sandboxing. It locks the front door, but leaves the backdoor and all your windows open, because that's what every application under the sun expects.

> Under X11, you are basically running every application with root, always.

This is ... not true, either broadly or generally. You're saying this because Xorg runs as root, which means that any security flaw in Xorg yields root access. I think saying that "you are running every application with root" is stretching it a bit, but I'll accept it.

But Xorg doesn't have to run as root. OpenBSD started it years ago with Xenocara, but AFAIK Fedora also does not run Xorg as root. I'm not sure what other OSes are doing, but it's at least not a flaw of X11 in general, just a flaw of Xorg.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#185

Post by kevincox »

vaylian wrote: post #104
MartijnBraam wrote: post #2

I'm not even a wayland developer and I get annoyed by all the posts about wayland not working, I've been running it for years and it Just Works(tm) for me aside from the occasional gotcha.

As someone who has no experience with Wayland: What are the telltale signs that a problem is related to Wayland and not the application itself? I've gotten curious. I want to try Wayland in the near future. But it would be good to have an idea of what kind of issues I might encounter, so that I can change back to X11 in an emergency.

I don't think there is really much. Most of the bugs you will see stem from software having a different codepath for each. For example I know that drag and drop is a little buggy on Firefox under Wayland not because of the protocol, just a state management bug that they are trying to track down. (however Firefox still uses XWayland by default so it isn't really relevant anyways). But I suspect we are roughly around the point where the X codepaths, while more battle hardened, are probably starting to rot so the current state you are probably getting the sameish number of bugs under each (AKA applications are differently broken under both).

If you are seeing a bug I guess just try the other one out and see if it reproduces, but I can't think of the last time I did that.

The only thing that is a common issue is screen capturing not working. If you have PipeWire setup it will work for most applications but it is still quite new. So if something related to screen content grabbing is not working it could be a Wayland triggered bug.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#186

Post by ubercow13 »

dleslie wrote: post #102
BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

Hell, Emacs doesn't work in Wayland.

Have you tried the Wayland port? (https://github.com/masm11/emacs :)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#187

Post by teekert »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

To be honest I find It a bit pretentious to call this a "mistake". This happens: Devs don't like to maintain old codebase, start a new one, anybody is free to start maintaining the old code. And then there is you, who calls their strategy "a mistake".

You can still use Xorg on most distros. In Ubuntu it's one checkmark.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#188

Post by sushisource »

kuschku wrote: post #14

I’m using a Dell UP2718Q (3840x2160, 144dpi, 60Hz) and a Fujitsu Siemens P17-2 (1024x1280, 96dpi, 75Hz) side by side, and without Wayland this setup isn’t even possible to get working properly. Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly. O…

This is definitely not entirely true of x11. I have mixed DPI (which, admittedly, does work for shit, but can be hacked around by using a wrapper script to launch things with different DPIs) and mixed refresh rates. The mixed refresh rates work perfectly, zero issues (as configured via nvidia drivers, admittedly annoying for other reasons).

That said I would use wayland if nvidia wasn't busy fucking everything up.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#189

Post by jamespo »

unanswered wrote: post #169
alyandon wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can fix the problematic service with: systemctl edit service-name [Service] TimeoutStopSec=XX You can also override the global default DefaultTimeoutStopSec in /etc/systemd/system.conf.

See, this right here is the (technical, not social) problem with systemd. Whether anyone points out that systemd is doing something stupid and wrong, the systemd shills' answer is always "well duh what did you expect when you didn't modify one of the hundred default configuration files to have `[stupidshit] = false`! You brought this on yourself!" And you're lucky if that even works to solve the problem.

Yes bring back the handwritten shellscripts to start up & shut down services

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#190

Post by forgotmypw17 »

patrickaljord wrote: post #65
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

well yeah, i just got used to it working a certain way, now i gotta figure it out again.

fucking nerds acting like it,s no big deal when shit i use every day is all changed up.

do you have any idea how much cognitive load that is for the average user to figure out new ui?

and usually for no good reason, just to change shit up so someone can get credit for a project.

don,t blame the users for software being shit. it,s shit. it,s built by arrogant emotionally-children with no concern for empathy or quality.

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