India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi • Hacker News Board

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#261

Post by kamaal » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 8:05 AM UTC

eklavya wrote: post #229

kamaal wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.deccanherald.com/state/top-karnataka-stories/kar... It also offers protection for "persons acting in good faith" as no suit, prosecution or other legal proceedings can be instituted against the competent authority or "any person exercising powers under this Act."

That does sound damning. What are these powers? I know villagers here have been stopping traffickers from cow smuggling since forever. What powers is this ordinance giving them is not detailed in the article. I am pretty sure killing won’t be allowed though.

https://www.indialegallive.com/cover-story-articles/il-featu...

The anti-cow slaughter Bill has been drafted in such a manner that cow vigilantes will be granted protection under Section 17. Interpreting the “good faith” clause means that no suit, prosecution or legal proceedings will be initiated against the vigilantes if they can prove that they committed the act in such a manner.

States with stringent laws on cow slaughter have often reported high cases of lynching by cow vigilantes. According to a report of the New York based Human Rights Watch, 44 people in India have been killed by cow vigilantes within a span of three years. The report further revealed that these radical cow protection groups often received support from politicians and law enforcement agencies.

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#262

Post by youeseh » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 8:10 AM UTC

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #173

> Agriculture employs about half of India's 1.3 billion population I am not familiar with politics in India, so my question is: how does the BJP manage to push laws that (seem to) adversly affect the interest of half of the population? Isn't that political suicide for the BJP?

The short answer is that the new laws benefit some farmers and burden others.

You'll notice that the protestors are mostly from Punjab - the BJP did not win in Punjab, so they don't have much to lose there by helping other farmers at the cost of Punjabi farmers. The previous system was more favorable to Punjab's farmers.

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#263

Post by rishav_sharan » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 8:12 AM UTC

eklavya wrote: post #259

rishav_sharan wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From RSSs role in the MK Gandhi's assassination, Gujrat's riots, to the Samjhauta Express bombings, Ajmer Dargah attacks, to the cow vigilatelism, beating up couples at valentine's day - the list is pretty long to consider RSS as Religious terrorists.

Are you sure you are talking about RSS? Are you talking about shivsena, Bajrang dal, Hindu sena?

Bajrang Dal is an offshoot of RSS and is part of the Sangh family.

Shivsena I wouldn't club them completely with the other Sangh family but they too have a sordid past of religious fundamentalism.

I can't comment much on Hindu Sena as I am not well aware of their activities.

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#264

Post by aparsons » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 8:21 AM UTC

Lived in India in the 1980s - going there on a spiritual journey (yes, I know) and stayed for a few years.

When I left the country, two events had occurred for which I don’t think I’ll be able to see that country in a good light ever again.

The first was the anti-Sikh riots after Indira Gandhi’s murder. Politicians were compliant, including the newly elected PM Rajiv Gandhi who at the time famously said “When a tree falls, it’s normal for the earth to shake”. Of course, I haven’t even touched on the events leading up to this, most notably the destruction of the Golden Temple. I spoke to people who saw the riots first-hand, and it tainted my view of that country forever.

The second was the Indian intervention in neighboring Sri Lanka. The oppressed Tamil minority were waging a war against the government. India sent in its forces, in the name of brokering peace and then killed thousands of innocent civilians. The Indian man’s propensity for rape was on full display, as the Indian “Peacekeeping” Force (IPKF) weaponized rape against the same populace they came to protect. For what it’s worth, India was humiliated a la Vietnam, and lost thousands of soldiers.

The rape issue is also very apparent in modern day Indian society, but I’d rather not open that can of worms in this thread.

In either case, after witnessing these happenings from relatively close, I gave up on all hope for that country. Too many rotten apples.

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#265

Post by youeseh » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 8:23 AM UTC

xrisk wrote: post #244

bythckr wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me share how I understood the issue. Pre-independence, during the Zamindar System (Indian version of Feudalism). The Zamindar owned the land and the farmers worked on it and the Zamindar compensated them what he felt like. The farmers had no leverage to bargain and was pretty much the salve of the Zamindar. This was the Indian version of slaves. Similarly after the Independence, the Zamindar System was abolished.…

Once the mandis are gone, what prevents a monopolized market from then strong-arming farmers into bad deals? Farmers do not have leverage to negotiate good deals with big corps, and when the mandis eventually die away (simply due to this bill); they will be forced to enter into exploitative deals. EDIT > But can ONLY sell the produce to the local Mandi. This is factually incorrect. Only about 30% of produce is sold i…

> What prevents a monopolized market?

I'm not sure if the Indian government does this, but in some countries the government breaks up monopolies and tries to prevent them from forming in the first place.

I think the new laws allow anyone to approach a farmer with a better deal, and if the farmer chooses, they can even try to sell directly to the end customers.

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#266

Post by _y5hn » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 8:36 AM UTC

ngc248 wrote: post #246

Dude, you really think, we Indians cant govern ourselves, I mean what is this calling your representatives. I think anytime anything happens to some minority in the the Great USA, us Indians also need to call our MP and ask them to create noise. I mean this is utterly condescending and racist.

Not really. Lots of people worldwide were very concerned about the lies the past 4 years in US. Of course people write about their concerns. Lots of people care for Indians, the Chinese and Russians too!

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#267

Post by bythckr » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 8:37 AM UTC

xrisk wrote: post #244

bythckr wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me share how I understood the issue. Pre-independence, during the Zamindar System (Indian version of Feudalism). The Zamindar owned the land and the farmers worked on it and the Zamindar compensated them what he felt like. The farmers had no leverage to bargain and was pretty much the salve of the Zamindar. This was the Indian version of slaves. Similarly after the Independence, the Zamindar System was abolished.…

Once the mandis are gone, what prevents a monopolized market from then strong-arming farmers into bad deals? Farmers do not have leverage to negotiate good deals with big corps, and when the mandis eventually die away (simply due to this bill); they will be forced to enter into exploitative deals. EDIT > But can ONLY sell the produce to the local Mandi. This is factually incorrect. Only about 30% of produce is sold i…

> Once the mandis are gone

Where are the mandis going? If they are non-competitive, they are out. But if they lose their non-sense and compete, they can be around. Also, the people working at the Mandis (Mandi employees), they are also free to start their own company that compete with the Mandis.

> what prevents a monopolized market from then strong-arming farmers into bad deals? This law, which prevents monolopy. The current monopoly is the Mandi. How will be farmers be strong-armed to a bad deal if they have options to choose?

> This is factually incorrect.

My mistake, "But can ONLY sell the produce to the local Mandi at some states". Punjab is an example of were Mandis have complete power. While in other states like TN, Bihar, MP, UP and more have already changed the rule.

> Only about 30% of produce is sold in mandis.

that is a bit misleading as Mandis dont have prominence is all states. But in Punjab where they are there, no one is allowed.

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#268

Post by xrisk » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 8:42 AM UTC

youeseh wrote: post #265

xrisk wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once the mandis are gone, what prevents a monopolized market from then strong-arming farmers into bad deals? Farmers do not have leverage to negotiate good deals with big corps, and when the mandis eventually die away (simply due to this bill); they will be forced to enter into exploitative deals. EDIT > But can ONLY sell the produce to the local Mandi. This is factually incorrect. Only about 30% of produce is sold i…

> What prevents a monopolized market? I'm not sure if the Indian government does this, but in some countries the government breaks up monopolies and tries to prevent them from forming in the first place. I think the new laws allow anyone to approach a farmer with a better deal, and if the farmer chooses, they can even try to sell directly to the end customers.

The Indian government actively colludes with big corp; forget about breaking up monopolies (see: Jio).

As for the claim that the new laws allow anybody to approach a farmer with a better deal; sure that works in theory -- but notice that 1) that only works if there isn't a monopoly that drives prices (consider Jio that successfully monopolized telecom in India and now effectively sets prices throughout the industry) 2) farmers would be contractually obligated to sell produce (which would be a long-term deal).

The issue might be alleviated if the government promises to enforce a minimum price on all contracts made, but it will do nothing of that sort.

As for selling directly to end customers, in my limited knowledge, that is not a thing in India.

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#269

Post by ngc248 » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 8:46 AM UTC

_y5hn wrote: post #266

ngc248 wrote: post #246

Dude, you really think, we Indians cant govern ourselves, I mean what is this calling your representatives. I think anytime anything happens to some minority in the the Great USA, us Indians also need to call our MP and ask them to create noise. I mean this is utterly condescending and racist.

Not really. Lots of people worldwide were very concerned about the lies the past 4 years in US. Of course people write about their concerns. Lots of people care for Indians, the Chinese and Russians too!

Lots care, but while caring they are feeding into their own biases.

>>> Lots of people care for Indians, the Chinese and Russians too!

One of them is not like the others. India is not an authoritarian, one party system like the others. It was that for a few years when the congress held sway. Now it is a vibrant democracy. At the state level there are state parties and at the national level there are national parties which get elected. There is no authoritarianism here.

BJP may not come to power next time because of a myriad reasons. If they actually come to power it is because people want them to. Of course people may detract this saying populist (which has become a dirty word now), but whatever all the power to the people man.

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#270

Post by deepglacier » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 8:47 AM UTC

ngc248 wrote: post #246

Dude, you really think, we Indians cant govern ourselves, I mean what is this calling your representatives. I think anytime anything happens to some minority in the the Great USA, us Indians also need to call our MP and ask them to create noise. I mean this is utterly condescending and racist.

> I mean this is utterly condescending and racist.

There is nothing racist about the international community raising concerns about violations of basic democratic rights such as free speech and right of assembly.

> I think anytime anything happens to some minority in the the Great USA, us Indians also need to call our MP and ask them to create noise.

I would support Indians doing this. Please raise concerns with your representatives when you see human rights violations in any part of the world and ask them to speak about it in international forums. In the past, India has done a commendable job in helping minorities persecuted by the CCP. Many Tibetian Buddhists were given refuge in India, including Dalai Lama, who fled Tibet in 1959. Contrary to it's history, India is staying mum on contemporary persecution of religious minorities in neighboring countries such as Rohingyas in Myanmar and Uyghurs in China.