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Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

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Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#141

Post by chaganated »

Simulacra wrote: post #128

I'm not an economist so I would really appreciate insight into a thought I've had about UBI. Let's say your rent is $1,000 per month, and the government began a universal basic income program of $500 per month for everyone. If your landlord raises your rent by $500, are you not in the same position as you were before without the UBI? I ask this because my argument with a UBI is that it will create more money in the s…

It's even worse than that, since inflation hits the poors the hardest, while the capital and professional classes have skills/assets that weather inflation quite nicely. Hard to imagine a more efficient way of neutering the poors politically and economically.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#142

Post by syshum »

slg wrote: post #132
syshum wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fairness is treating everyone equally, the fact you put that in quotes is concerning... Further it is not just people that have paid off college debt or are past the stage where are concerned about college debt.. Many people worked their ass off to become good at a trade or other profession with out incurring college debt, why should we then have to pay increased taxes to pay of those that bought into the college lie…

Let’s say you are at a family reunion and want to play a game of baseball with everyone. Is it “fair” to have the same rules for the 6 year old child and the 25 year old who used to play on his high school baseball team? More likely you would tweak the rules a little or pitch a little slower to the kid so everyone has fun and can fully participate. Sometimes fairness means leveling the playing field so everyone can c…

Well your straw-man is completely weak and not relevant the conversation about government tax policy

We are not talking about a "family" but talking about government, that is something very different and it is very dangerous to view government as a "family" in the same way it dangerous to view a corporations or your employer as "family"

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#143

Post by wpietri »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #87
wpietri wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think we'll run out of things for people to do? The history of the last 500 years or so suggests that when old jobs get optimized out of existence, there's still plenty that needs doing. When I look around, I definitely don't see a society with no unfilled needs, so I expect we can keep going quite a spell.

Labor force participation data ( https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300001 ) strongly suggests that a lot of people believe we've run out of things for them to do over the last century. (The overall chart https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART is confounded by the simultaneous trend of the womens' rights movement getting women into the workforce https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNU01300002 .)

I think that's a couple of misunderstandings together.

One is that the only kind of thing to do is work at a job, which is what labor force participation measures. But that's not the case at all, and it's obvious from your second graph. Do you believe that in 1950 ~70% of women were idle, doing nothing? Of course not. They were doing all sort of societally valuable work. It just wasn't in the form of a paid job. And that's my key point here: there is plenty of stuff that needs doing that would make the world better. It's just that a lot of it hasn't been converted into paid jobs that would show up in a graph like this. Just try thinking about all the things wrong with the world and ask whether more people helping with them could make them better.

Secondarily, a decline in the labor force participation rate can have all sorts of causes. The formal definition is "the percentage of the civilian noninstitutional population 16 years and older that is working or actively looking for work." Labor force participation rate for people 16-19 is low. Is that because there's nothing a teen could do? No, it's because they're in school. Labor force participation rate for people over 65 is even lower, ~15%. And over recent decades, we've seen that that segment of the population grow rapidly. So the labor force participation rate has declined significantly because people are living longer and enjoying retirement.

And of course, there's plenty of overlap in the two factors. After my dad retired, he spent a lot of time volunteering at a school. The kids definitely needed the help, but he was unpaid. That's a great example of something for people to do that wasn't counted as part of the labor force. Similarly, my aunts spent a ton of time helping raise their grandkids after they retired. Because of politics and accounting rules, that's not a formal job, but it's absolutely socially valuable labor.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#144

Post by slg »

syshum wrote: post #142
slg wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s say you are at a family reunion and want to play a game of baseball with everyone. Is it “fair” to have the same rules for the 6 year old child and the 25 year old who used to play on his high school baseball team? More likely you would tweak the rules a little or pitch a little slower to the kid so everyone has fun and can fully participate. Sometimes fairness means leveling the playing field so everyone can c…

Well your straw-man is completely weak and not relevant the conversation about government tax policy We are not talking about a "family" but talking about government, that is something very different and it is very dangerous to view government as a "family" in the same way it dangerous to view a corporations or your employer as "family"

It is an analogy. It doesn’t mean we are literally a family. If you want to use a tax analogy, let’s look at marginal tax rates. It is widely regarded by a majority of the population that a flat tax isn’t fair as it treats everyone the same. It is fine if you aren’t in that majority, but you can’t pretend that “fair” means treating everyone the same is some universal truth.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#146

Post by 6510 »

azey47 wrote: post #5

I agree UBI is better than a minimum wage, but it seems a Negative Income Tax as advocated for by Milton Friedman would be still better. It would have the desired effect of supporting the poor with guaranteed income (something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates, especially amongst low-skilled employees), but do so a lot more cost effectively than UBI since you wouldn’t be guaranteeing paym…

Negative income tax is toxic to automation.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#147

Post by derekp7 »

slg wrote: post #105
SmokyBourbon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Andrew Yang: > I am a huge fan of a negative income tax, but I prefer a UBI for multiple reasons. It lowers the administrative burden because you don’t need to figure out how much I made last year. It removes any strange shenanigans in terms of trying to report a low income. It alleviates a payments timing issue — you’re not likely to get your negative income tax when you might need it. And politically, I think it’s…

>And politically, I think it’s more appealing to be able to say to everyone: You have intrinsic value. The universality of UBI is key to its political viability. Just look at the number of people who are against forgiving college debt because they have already paid off college or are past the stage in their life in which they are personally concerned about college debt. Most people still view "fairness" as everyone b…

That is something I just really don't get. It is like being against the Polio vaccine simply because "I had gotten polio just before the vaccine came out, so if I had to suffer everyone else should too". I've never heard of anyone being against vaccines due to "fairness".

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#148

Post by 6510 »

robocat wrote: post #112
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only difference between a UBI and a negative income tax is framing. Suppose you have a negative income tax in the amount of $12,000 which phases out at a rate of 25% up to $48,000 in income, and a 5% marginal tax rate on people who make less than $48,000 and a 30% marginal tax rate on people who make more. Suppose you have a $12,000 UBI and a flat 30% tax rate. These are really the same thing. The advantage of th…

> The only difference between a UBI and a negative income tax is framing. No way. Taxation requires benefit systems for those that are not working (unemployment, disability, maternity etc). UBI simplifies benefit systems, administratively and for the needy. The social outcomes for benefits are entirely different from what a UBI would bring. Taxation is chunky (per year) and delayed (processing delays). There are heap…

Yes, you could have a smaller overhead with a large amount of fraud and a lot of exclusion of people in need but you can also have an enormous overhead, still have some fraud and still exclude some of those who need it the most. End of the day you cant measure need. If you have 2 people with migraine, back pain and some problem in their social lives there is no way to calculate or compare their situation fairly. (both are better than what we have)

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#149

Post by bostonvaulter2 »

antonzabirko wrote: post #99
reader_mode wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very narrative driven world view. The problem with UBI is that some jobs suck but need to be done, and if you set a guaranteed income for doing nothing the incentive for doing that job suddenly needs to be a lot higher to compete. Saying that it's just the capital owners is ridiculous - consider for eg. elderly care - good luck living in with your demented mother who needs assistance to perform even the basi…

On the flip side, UBI will increase the revenue from those jobs. The less desirable jobs will pay more simply due to supply and demand.

And if no one wants to do the job for the given price then it becomes more worthwhile to invest in additional automation.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#150

Post by syshum »

slg wrote: post #144
syshum wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well your straw-man is completely weak and not relevant the conversation about government tax policy We are not talking about a "family" but talking about government, that is something very different and it is very dangerous to view government as a "family" in the same way it dangerous to view a corporations or your employer as "family"

It is an analogy. It doesn’t mean we are literally a family. If you want to use a tax analogy, let’s look at marginal tax rates. It is widely regarded by a majority of the population that a flat tax isn’t fair as it treats everyone the same. It is fine if you aren’t in that majority, but you can’t pretend that “fair” means treating everyone the same is some universal truth.

Well that is another bad analogy, and while I do find all income taxation to be unethical marginalize tax rates are not treating people differently, they are treating incomes differently.

To treat people differently you would have to start basing income tax rates on characteristics of a person, such as race, sexual identity, age or height (like in your previous analogy)

Saying all income from 0-50000 is tax X, and income from 50000-100000 is taxed Y is not treating PEOPLE differently, all PEOPLE are treated the same in that situation.

To be clear I am a supporter of replacing all Welfare programs with a Negative Income Tax. I would also be in favor of a UBI that was not funded with Income taxation.

I also support the abolishment of all Income based taxation replacing it with Georgism Single Tax System

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