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Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

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Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#101

Post by executive »

gtsop wrote: post #88
aww_dang wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day most people don't want to work, but the option to be paid for not working isn't available. We all dislike working to some extent. Otherwise we would do it for free, as a hobby. There are some low paid jobs people choose out of passion or interest. There are also bottom rung jobs that beginners with no job skills can enter. Think about people with no language skills, don't they deserve a chance t…

> At the end of the day most people don't want to work [...] We all dislike working to some extent. Where did you get that from? I really think the opposite is true.

Sir, this is a Wendy's

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#103

Post by AnthonyMouse »

randomdata wrote: post #89
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I report my income as of December 31st, 2020, I still made enough for the year that I won't receive benefits, despite not having an income. That means that I will be unsupported through 2021 and won't see the money until 2022, correct? There is no "don't receive benefits" anywhere. Everybody gets $12,000/year every year in both cases. Then separately people who make more than $48,000/year pay more than a total…

> There is no "don't receive benefits" anywhere. Everybody gets $12,000/year in both cases. Does a negative income tax not tell that high earners pay money to the state, while low earners receive money from the state? If everyone receives money from the state, even if high earners have to pay it back at tax time, that does not meet the definition of negative income tax as I know it. That is UBI. A more concrete examp…

You don't pay income tax at tax time, it gets withheld from your paycheck on an ongoing basis.

Suppose you make $20,000/month, i.e. $240,000/year if you made that the whole year.

In January through March you make $20,000/month. Under a UBI you receive $1000 but then pay $6000 in taxes, a net payment to the government of $5000/month. Under a negative income tax you pay 5% on the first $4000 ($200) and 30% on the remaining $16,000 ($4800), and expect to receive no credit because it fully phased out, so a net payment to the government of $5000/month. It's the same.

In April through December you make nothing. Then you get the $1000 UBI/credit and there is no tax. To receive the net money from the tax credit before the end of the year you would have to be able to claim it without a job, and to set your withholding amount to a negative number that month because you have no income. Which is theoretically possible (it would be what happens to anyone making <$48,000/year), and either way you still get the same total amount at the end of the year when you file your taxes and reconcile.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#104

Post by akvadrako »

hehehaha wrote: post #25
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only difference between a UBI and a negative income tax is framing. Suppose you have a negative income tax in the amount of $12,000 which phases out at a rate of 25% up to $48,000 in income, and a 5% marginal tax rate on people who make less than $48,000 and a 30% marginal tax rate on people who make more. Suppose you have a $12,000 UBI and a flat 30% tax rate. These are really the same thing. The advantage of th…

With UBI, people will be more selective in their job search. With negative tax rate not so much since you would need to work in order to benefit. I am not a fan of them because they will simply push out cost of living and the poor will be back in same relative economic disadvantage. The only realistic solution I see is free education even into adult age.

> With negative tax rate not so much since you would need to work in order to benefit

This is not how NIT works. You can read this for an intro:

https://www.scottsantens.com/negative-income-tax-nit-and-unc...

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#105

Post by slg »

SmokyBourbon wrote: post #20
azey47 wrote: post #5

I agree UBI is better than a minimum wage, but it seems a Negative Income Tax as advocated for by Milton Friedman would be still better. It would have the desired effect of supporting the poor with guaranteed income (something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates, especially amongst low-skilled employees), but do so a lot more cost effectively than UBI since you wouldn’t be guaranteeing paym…

Andrew Yang: > I am a huge fan of a negative income tax, but I prefer a UBI for multiple reasons. It lowers the administrative burden because you don’t need to figure out how much I made last year. It removes any strange shenanigans in terms of trying to report a low income. It alleviates a payments timing issue — you’re not likely to get your negative income tax when you might need it. And politically, I think it’s…

>And politically, I think it’s more appealing to be able to say to everyone: You have intrinsic value.

The universality of UBI is key to its political viability. Just look at the number of people who are against forgiving college debt because they have already paid off college or are past the stage in their life in which they are personally concerned about college debt. Most people still view "fairness" as everyone being treated equally. So just give everyone an equal amount of money.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#106

Post by a1369209993 »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #17
cylon13 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're always incentivized to make marginally more money with the negative income tax because it gives you a monotonically increasing effective income vs job income curve, whereas some welfare systems end up with disincentives at various points of income where you'd make overall less by exiting the income level where you're receiving the aid (the same curve gets a negative slope or a downward jump).

I hate to ask, but can you dumb this down? I still don’t really get it. Are you saying that if you have no job that 100% of your income is tax funded, but if you have even a shitty job that you still get more benefit than the job alone but this is sliding scale down to some unknown point which you no longer receive any benefit at all?

> I hate to ask, but can you dumb this down?

Most actual examples are less blatant, but let's say our welfare system consists of a 12'000$ welfare for anyone who makes less than 12'000$ in income. If your job pays 11'000$, your take-home pay is 11+12 = 23'000$. If you do very well and get a 2000$ raise, your income is now 13'000$, so you don't get the welfare, and your take-home pay is now 13'000$, meaning you lost 23-13 = 10'000$ of effective income by getting a raise.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#107

Post by syshum »

slg wrote: post #105
SmokyBourbon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Andrew Yang: > I am a huge fan of a negative income tax, but I prefer a UBI for multiple reasons. It lowers the administrative burden because you don’t need to figure out how much I made last year. It removes any strange shenanigans in terms of trying to report a low income. It alleviates a payments timing issue — you’re not likely to get your negative income tax when you might need it. And politically, I think it’s…

>And politically, I think it’s more appealing to be able to say to everyone: You have intrinsic value. The universality of UBI is key to its political viability. Just look at the number of people who are against forgiving college debt because they have already paid off college or are past the stage in their life in which they are personally concerned about college debt. Most people still view "fairness" as everyone b…

Fairness is treating everyone equally, the fact you put that in quotes is concerning...

Further it is not just people that have paid off college debt or are past the stage where are concerned about college debt..

Many people worked their ass off to become good at a trade or other profession with out incurring college debt, why should we then have to pay increased taxes to pay of those that bought into the college lie?

No one is offering me Mortgage Debt forgiveness? Housing is more of a necessity of life than a collage degree...

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#109

Post by azey47 »

A12-B wrote: post #10
azey47 wrote: post #5

I agree UBI is better than a minimum wage, but it seems a Negative Income Tax as advocated for by Milton Friedman would be still better. It would have the desired effect of supporting the poor with guaranteed income (something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates, especially amongst low-skilled employees), but do so a lot more cost effectively than UBI since you wouldn’t be guaranteeing paym…

> something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates It's important to read economic literature beyond old dead economists because many modern economists disagree with this, or think it doesn't paint a full picture of the situation. Noah Smith comes to mind.

>To accomplish this, we assembled the entire set of published studies in this literature and identified the core estimates that support the conclusions from each study, in most cases relying on responses from the researchers who wrote these papers. Our key conclusions are: (i) there is a clear preponderance of negative estimates in the literature; (ii) this evidence is stronger for teens and young adults as well as the less-educated; (iii) the evidence from studies of directly-affected workers points even more strongly to negative employment effects; and (iv) the evidence from studies of low-wage industries is less one-sided.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w28388

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#110

Post by randomdata »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #103
randomdata wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no "don't receive benefits" anywhere. Everybody gets $12,000/year in both cases. Does a negative income tax not tell that high earners pay money to the state, while low earners receive money from the state? If everyone receives money from the state, even if high earners have to pay it back at tax time, that does not meet the definition of negative income tax as I know it. That is UBI. A more concrete examp…

You don't pay income tax at tax time, it gets withheld from your paycheck on an ongoing basis. Suppose you make $20,000/month, i.e. $240,000/year if you made that the whole year. In January through March you make $20,000/month. Under a UBI you receive $1000 but then pay $6000 in taxes, a net payment to the government of $5000/month. Under a negative income tax you pay 5% on the first $4000 ($200) and 30% on the remai…

> You don't pay income tax at tax time, it gets withheld from your paycheck on an ongoing basis.

You're shrinking the window down from a year, but does it change anything other than you might be able to get by for a couple of weeks easier than an entire year if your income dries up? Assuming monthly payments, and a loss of income on March 1st, I'm still under the impression that UBI will give you $1,000 to spend as of March 1st, while a negative income tax will make you wait until April 1st, no?

But also, in my world there are no paychecks or ongoing regular income and income isn't reported until the end of the year. How does that fit the model?

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