Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#11

Post by JPKab » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

The minute UBI gets instituted is the minute that politicians will arise who want to lower the quantity for one group of people and increase it for the group of people that supports them.

Eventually it will end up being means tested in one form or another just like the income tax system has been made so complex by politicians favoring one group over another.

I absolutely love the idea of UBI but I just don't see it surviving in a pure form with our populist and identity group focused political system.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#12

Post by jacob2484 » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

sdenton4 wrote: post #7

exabrial wrote: post #3

Kind of a self defeating claim; sorta like saying McDonalds burgers are better than Burger King. Both are pretty pretty bad for you.

Who is 'you?' Capitalism is a social good to the extent that it solves problems and makes people's lives better. But capitalism only solves the problems of people with money: their cash is THE incentive for others to figure out how to solve their problems. If people with problems have no money, they effectively create no demand. Add wealth to the bottom tier of society and we'll generate generate demand to solve prob…

Using post WW2 times as a basis for any argument is wrong. Post WW2, there was no China as a superpower and no globalization. If businesses are forced to pay more for low-skill labor, they can do so easily by taking the jobs elsewhere, which was not the case (or at least as easily done) after WW2.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#13

Post by Turing_Machine » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #4

And why does the author not support both? It's articles like this that make me wonder if the purpose of the basic income movement is to act as a sort of pipe dream spoiler for more realistic progressive policies - like a $15 minimum wage. Either that or a plan to make welfare "fairer" by ensuring that disabled veterans who can't work and tech millionaires get the same $ amount each month from the government. Especial…

I think the idea is that while both may "get the same amount", the NET amount is, in fact, smaller for the tech millionaire than the disabled veteran, because the tech millionaire pays a much higher tax rate.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#14

Post by cylon13 » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #8

azey47 wrote: post #5

I agree UBI is better than a minimum wage, but it seems a Negative Income Tax as advocated for by Milton Friedman would be still better. It would have the desired effect of supporting the poor with guaranteed income (something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates, especially amongst low-skilled employees), but do so a lot more cost effectively than UBI since you wouldn’t be guaranteeing paym…

> would avoid any welfare trap created by existing welfare programs. How would it do that?

You're always incentivized to make marginally more money with the negative income tax because it gives you a monotonically increasing effective income vs job income curve, whereas some welfare systems end up with disincentives at various points of income where you'd make overall less by exiting the income level where you're receiving the aid (the same curve gets a negative slope or a downward jump).

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#15

Post by randomdata » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #9

azey47 wrote: post #5

I agree UBI is better than a minimum wage, but it seems a Negative Income Tax as advocated for by Milton Friedman would be still better. It would have the desired effect of supporting the poor with guaranteed income (something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates, especially amongst low-skilled employees), but do so a lot more cost effectively than UBI since you wouldn’t be guaranteeing paym…

The only difference between a UBI and a negative income tax is framing. Suppose you have a negative income tax in the amount of $12,000 which phases out at a rate of 25% up to $48,000 in income, and a 5% marginal tax rate on people who make less than $48,000 and a 30% marginal tax rate on people who make more. Suppose you have a $12,000 UBI and a flat 30% tax rate. These are really the same thing. The advantage of th…

Isn't the practical difference the past vs. the future? A negative income tax is based on already reported income, whereas UBI is clawed back once income is reported.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#16

Post by codemac » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #8

azey47 wrote: post #5

I agree UBI is better than a minimum wage, but it seems a Negative Income Tax as advocated for by Milton Friedman would be still better. It would have the desired effect of supporting the poor with guaranteed income (something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates, especially amongst low-skilled employees), but do so a lot more cost effectively than UBI since you wouldn’t be guaranteeing paym…

> would avoid any welfare trap created by existing welfare programs. How would it do that?

Hypothetically they'd get rid of a lot of welfare programs and just institute a negative tax, which has a smooth curve upwards. More money always means you make more, just maybe not linearly.

UBI can do this too - it's not clear to me what the practical differences between UBI and "negative income tax" are.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#17

Post by SV_BubbleTime » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

cylon13 wrote: post #14

guerrilla wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> would avoid any welfare trap created by existing welfare programs. How would it do that?

You're always incentivized to make marginally more money with the negative income tax because it gives you a monotonically increasing effective income vs job income curve, whereas some welfare systems end up with disincentives at various points of income where you'd make overall less by exiting the income level where you're receiving the aid (the same curve gets a negative slope or a downward jump).

I hate to ask, but can you dumb this down? I still don’t really get it. Are you saying that if you have no job that 100% of your income is tax funded, but if you have even a shitty job that you still get more benefit than the job alone but this is sliding scale down to some unknown point which you no longer receive any benefit at all?

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#18

Post by Turing_Machine » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

sdenton4 wrote: post #7

exabrial wrote: post #3

Kind of a self defeating claim; sorta like saying McDonalds burgers are better than Burger King. Both are pretty pretty bad for you.

Who is 'you?' Capitalism is a social good to the extent that it solves problems and makes people's lives better. But capitalism only solves the problems of people with money: their cash is THE incentive for others to figure out how to solve their problems. If people with problems have no money, they effectively create no demand. Add wealth to the bottom tier of society and we'll generate generate demand to solve prob…

It's pretty clear that minimum wage increases are inflationary. They may not be NET inflationary in some circumstances.

Consider this thought experiment: raise the minimum wage to $2 million/hour. What happens to prices?

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#19

Post by overton » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

Authors like this frame the UBI/minimum wage debate as if we just haven't figured out the right policy mix to fix poverty or precarity -- as if it's a problem of ideas. I propose that it's in fact a question of power -- 1) who benefits from people being poor and how much 2) power do they have?

1) Owners of capital, who don't want to see their labour costs escalate and use firing/the poverty gun as a disciplinary tool.

2) Overwhelming power, channeled through vectors such as billions spent in lobbying or campaign contributions or threats to take their capital to friendlier jurisdictions.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#20

Post by SmokyBourbon » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

azey47 wrote: post #5

I agree UBI is better than a minimum wage, but it seems a Negative Income Tax as advocated for by Milton Friedman would be still better. It would have the desired effect of supporting the poor with guaranteed income (something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates, especially amongst low-skilled employees), but do so a lot more cost effectively than UBI since you wouldn’t be guaranteeing paym…

Andrew Yang:

> I am a huge fan of a negative income tax, but I prefer a UBI for multiple reasons. It lowers the administrative burden because you don’t need to figure out how much I made last year. It removes any strange shenanigans in terms of trying to report a low income. It alleviates a payments timing issue — you’re not likely to get your negative income tax when you might need it. And politically, I think it’s more appealing to be able to say to everyone: You have intrinsic value. This is how much you get for being an American, [a] human being.