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Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

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Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#91

Post by rhino369 »

grecy wrote: post #71
dang wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a long history of posting nationalistic flamebait to HN. We've warned you many times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25800127 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22622642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22604801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22221660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21880344 ... and you've only kept doing it. You've done it repeatedly in recent days, even in the last f…

I'll stop, though it would be preferable if we could have discussions around topics, rather than just banning them. After living and working in the US, and Canada, and Australia, I genuinely don't understand why the US can't learn from other countries to improve itself. Honestly, I'm not trying to post flamebait, I simply don't understand , and I've never heard a good explanation. My friends here in Canadian healthca…

Don't plenty of countries in the EU have higher poverty rates than the USA? Isn't Australia's essentially the same as the USAs?

Is there really a huge difference or are you just subject to a lot of confirmation bias. Canada and Australia are far from solving poverty.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#92

Post by ChuckMcM »

maxerickson wrote: post #57
ChuckMcM wrote: post #36

I agree with most of the comments here about how UBI == negative tax, its really just changing the names of transfer payments in the economy. That said, the really appealing thing is that it allows wages to be unbound from the question of supporting the poor. If people are below the poverty line you can raise UBI, but you don't have to put your thumb on the scales of the labor market. But to not just re-create welfar…

To pay for it, it's going to be fully reclaimed at like $90,000 or lower.

And that is the beauty of the separation! Once you've got the two things (minimum wage and UBI) separated, you can adjust the tax code to move around the reclaim point.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#93

Post by aww_dang »

gtsop wrote: post #88
aww_dang wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day most people don't want to work, but the option to be paid for not working isn't available. We all dislike working to some extent. Otherwise we would do it for free, as a hobby. There are some low paid jobs people choose out of passion or interest. There are also bottom rung jobs that beginners with no job skills can enter. Think about people with no language skills, don't they deserve a chance t…

> At the end of the day most people don't want to work [...] We all dislike working to some extent. Where did you get that from? I really think the opposite is true.

Why not work for free as I suggested above? Why do employers compete for labor by providing incentives?

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#94

Post by rhino369 »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #87
wpietri wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think we'll run out of things for people to do? The history of the last 500 years or so suggests that when old jobs get optimized out of existence, there's still plenty that needs doing. When I look around, I definitely don't see a society with no unfilled needs, so I expect we can keep going quite a spell.

Labor force participation data ( https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300001 ) strongly suggests that a lot of people believe we've run out of things for them to do over the last century. (The overall chart https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART is confounded by the simultaneous trend of the womens' rights movement getting women into the workforce https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNU01300002 .)

Demographics impact this data, no? People in college, increased ability to retire, and an increase in the number of retire people (due to an aging population) all have an effect.

What does the data look like from 1900-1948? I imagine WWII had an impact too.

I would also consider whether the growth the welfare state is responsible for the drop--rather than just makes up for it.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#95

Post by aww_dang »

actualhuman wrote: post #53

We need to open the borders up. It is so unfair that only people who happen to live in the USA right now will get UBI. Biden needs to form military caravans to escort people across Mexico to get here as fast as possible. He can also start planes and ships from Africa. How many people can you load on an aircraft carrier? How many trips can it make a year? Let's stop messing around. It's so nationalist to talk about UB…

If only there was a global central bank, world wide biometric tax IDs and a one-world CBDC. They could distribute UBI to everyone without borders.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#96

Post by erik_seaberg »

wpietri wrote: post #56
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concern is that we're soon going to reach a point where "our current economic order" - the assumption that every healthy adult should have a full-time job - is unsustainable. I wouldn't say I oppose a $15 minimum wage, and I don't think the author would either, but we do desperately need to start thinking about our transition to a post-work society and I worry minimum wage debates are sucking up a lot of the ener…

Why do you think we'll run out of things for people to do? The history of the last 500 years or so suggests that when old jobs get optimized out of existence, there's still plenty that needs doing. When I look around, I definitely don't see a society with no unfilled needs, so I expect we can keep going quite a spell.

We've mostly run out of things for horses to do, which is why we don't see so many anymore. Automation took longer but it's getting pretty close for a lot of simple jobs at the same time.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#97

Post by codemac »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #54
codemac wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hypothetically they'd get rid of a lot of welfare programs and just institute a negative tax, which has a smooth curve upwards. More money always means you make more, just maybe not linearly. UBI can do this too - it's not clear to me what the practical differences between UBI and "negative income tax" are.

The advantage of UBI is that everyone gets it. Of course the puritans who believe that someone is only worth what a job gives them object that only those earning should get paid so some people regard this as a disadvantage .

> The advantage of UBI is that everyone gets it.

As opposed to a negative tax rate below some amount? Why would everyone not get that?

I guess it just feels like there are two equations that can be made equal so easily:

UBI_POLICY(income) = income + ubi_income - progressive_tax(income + ubi_constant)

NIT_POLICY(income) = income - progressive_tax(income) + negative_tax(income)

income + ubi_income - ubi_progressive_tax(income + ubi_constant) = income - nit_progressive_tax(income) + nit_negative_tax(income)

ubi_income - ubi_progressive_tax(income + ubi_constant) = nit_negative_tax(income) - nit_progressive_tax(income)

which seems a super easy thing to make equal. Is it the payments to folks that are different?

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#98

Post by rhino369 »

JPKab wrote: post #11

The minute UBI gets instituted is the minute that politicians will arise who want to lower the quantity for one group of people and increase it for the group of people that supports them. Eventually it will end up being means tested in one form or another just like the income tax system has been made so complex by politicians favoring one group over another. I absolutely love the idea of UBI but I just don't see it s…

Even if they don't discriminate, what would ensure its not just used as a political tool even if an increase is overall harmful?

Seems like voters have a lot of incentive to vote themselves increases.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#99

Post by antonzabirko »

reader_mode wrote: post #46
overton wrote: post #19

Authors like this frame the UBI/minimum wage debate as if we just haven't figured out the right policy mix to fix poverty or precarity -- as if it's a problem of ideas. I propose that it's in fact a question of power -- 1) who benefits from people being poor and how much 2) power do they have? 1) Owners of capital, who don't want to see their labour costs escalate and use firing/the poverty gun as a disciplinary tool…

That's a very narrative driven world view. The problem with UBI is that some jobs suck but need to be done, and if you set a guaranteed income for doing nothing the incentive for doing that job suddenly needs to be a lot higher to compete. Saying that it's just the capital owners is ridiculous - consider for eg. elderly care - good luck living in with your demented mother who needs assistance to perform even the basi…

On the flip side, UBI will increase the revenue from those jobs. The less desirable jobs will pay more simply due to supply and demand.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#100

Post by antonzabirko »

gtsop wrote: post #88
aww_dang wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day most people don't want to work, but the option to be paid for not working isn't available. We all dislike working to some extent. Otherwise we would do it for free, as a hobby. There are some low paid jobs people choose out of passion or interest. There are also bottom rung jobs that beginners with no job skills can enter. Think about people with no language skills, don't they deserve a chance t…

> At the end of the day most people don't want to work [...] We all dislike working to some extent. Where did you get that from? I really think the opposite is true.

Do you want to work for free then?

I understand money is used for supporting yourself, but do you honestly work for free after-hours? Everyone has better things to do than work. Travel the world, make businesses, and spend time with family. You'd rather work?

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