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IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

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Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#471

Post by jeffreyrogers »

andy_ppp wrote: post #5

How much would buying all the Brazilian rain forest cost the world, or even renting it from Brazil? We would need it to be slightly more than cattle farming to work... but I’d happily pay towards this.

Isn't it a bit unfair to impose that on Brazil? Europe doesn't have much wood anymore because they used so much of it from the Romans on. The US exported a lot of wood to Europe early in its history (still does). Should we tell Brazilians, "Sorry, that worked for us, but now that we're rich we care about the environment, so tough luck?"

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#472

Post by bloomingeek »

hello_moto wrote: post #465
throwawaygh wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I dislike IKEA for registering as a non-profit, when they're very clearly not. They're clearly not a charity. But there are TONS of tax-sheltered businesses that aren't charities. To me, it's morally equivalent to eg churches that use tax-free money to buy and operate super nice concert venues. Or any other non-profit that uses pre-tax money to pay salaries. IMO, Ikea > Churches. > or talk to anyone who…

IKEA > (Mega) churches. There are smaller churches that would benefit from the Govt policies.

Thank you, and absolutely correct. Also, thanks for differing Mega churches from small churches.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#473

Post by hedora »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #450
kebman wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love some insight in how this industry works. I know there's some shops that literally do woodworking and upholstry for that bespoke furniture, but as far as I know, most of it is designed for industry production and mass produced. And indeed, if it's one thing IKEA is doing, it's exactly design for mass production at scale, but the quality is not super-high, perhaps even intentionally. I think, when it comes dow…

Ikea definitely has tiers of quality. A $50 desk is basically cardboard, a $500 desk has some MDF around the edges to make it feel sturdier, and the $1000 desk might even have some real wood in it. The real problem with IKEA is that they use a supply chain that tends to bribe officials into cutting down old growth forests, destroying wildlife habitats.

Here’s a $100 desktop that’s solid wood:

https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/gerton-tabletop-beech-50106773/

A set of metal legs is about $30.

They used to sell a solid wood desk for under $200. I have one. It lasted over 10 years, but the desktop recently warped and split. (Laptop overheated it, I think.)

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#474

Post by Zimahl »

Xylakant wrote: post #382
killtimeatwork wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some of it is solely designed to hit a price point (“a $10 chair”) and is made of cheap plywood Isn't plywood actually stronger than real wood? It's even used for aircraft construction.

Plywood is often stronger than solid wood, but most importantly it doesn’t bend when drying or in moist environments if it’s properly cross-laminated. However, cheap IKEA furniture is often laminated fibre, which is basically compressed sawdust. It’s an entirely different material.

> it doesn’t bend when drying

Not just while the wood is drying, wood 'movement' is something woodworkers have to take into consideration in almost every project. Everyone lives in an environment with humidity (some more than others) and when seasons change solid wood will expand and contract. Plywood is very stable with respect to humidity.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#475

Post by gautamcgoel »

bayindirh wrote: post #211
bombcar wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "inside" refers to the material between the veneer layers - as you find with particle board or MDF: https://gharpedia.com/blog/particle-board-vs-mdf/ It sounds like Galant may be MDF which is more durable but still experiences expansion when wet. The countertop is solid wood to help prevent that type of damage - and as long as you maintain the plumbing it should last quite awhile.

Galant is much denser than MDF. It's like a monolithic slab. It's way smoother and has finer grain than standard MDF. For the table tops, IKEA's Professional Office Buying Guide quotes: "Tested for tough treatment: The BEKANT desk series have been tested according to the highest standards for professional office use (EN 527, ANSI/BIFMA X:5.5 for desks and EN14074, EN1730 and ANSI/BIFMA X:5.5 for conference tables) an…

I have a Bekant desk and I quite like it. Doesn't feel cheap at all to me. I think I paid around $250 for it.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#476

Post by throwaway894345 »

cedricbonhomme wrote: post #354
nom wrote: post #256

I never understood why people hate IKEA. Yes it's cheap. Yes it doesn't last a lifetime. Yes it needs a lot of wood. Yes it's highly optimized. But guess what, IKEA is a business responding to the needs of people. The negatives that are mentioned frequently are merely a symptom of our ever faster developing society. The people who complain are the same ones that just buy cheap crap from china without even thinking ab…

Personally I hate IKEA because they are selling pure crap.

I've been very happy with my Ikea purchases. Some of the materials are cheaper, but usually the overall function is better than products that would cost some multiple of the price. We have the means to buy the more expensive furniture, but I can't find any retailers that offer things that are as well-designed as IKEA, and IKEA seems to concern itself with the environment (although it's frustratingly easy for a retailer to mislead about the degree to which they are environmentally friendly, and while I'm sure IKEA exaggerates, my other local retailers are far less convincing). I have been disappointed with IKEA's selection of bookcases, but otherwise I'm pretty happy. Most importantly, my wife and I really enjoy trips to IKEA as one of the few 'outings' we get to do during COVID (we like to browse around show rooms and get ideas for our home and also to try their Swedish-themed foods).

That said, I really do welcome suggestions for other retailers, whether they be retailers that are more environmentally friendly, or better designed, or with a more enjoyable shopping experience.

EDIT: one more grievance--somehow everything is still out of stock for the foreseeable future, and they are very tight-lipped about the specific nature of their supply chain woes and how they're going to work around them. I would expect that a year into the pandemic they'd have addressed some of their supply chain issues or at least managed to be more accurate about their shipping estimates (even if those estimates are still far off into the future).

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#477

Post by titzer »

Kalium wrote: post #446
titzer wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A close friend of mine filled his house entirely with furniture, including couches, from the 1800s. Antique grandfather clocks, pianos, tables, armoires, etc. Not surprisingly, this person is highly skilled with wood and works at a small furniture shop that makes high-quality tables and chairs. Things made out of wood can last centuries. There's no need to further accelerate our throwaway culture with throwaway furni…

An interesting proposition! In 2008, I was on my own for the first time. I had to furnish my first apartment into livability. A family friend gave me a $300 gift card to IKEA. That gift got me a fully functional one-bedroom apartment that I could never have afforded at the time. Now, as a well-paid adult advanced in my career, I can afford to buy high-quality things. I do this knowing full well that I'm buying status…

Sure, nice things usually cost a premium. But used, secondhand stuff can be affordable too. There should be an economy of downcycling that allows for more affordable stuff, too. I just don't think that IKEA is that.

Case in point. When I moved in 2013 I had a ~$1500 dining table that I had paid $800 for. Due to the abruptness of my move, I ended up selling it on Craigslist for something like $200. Keep an eye out for deals, I guess?

BTW none of the 1800s furniture that my friend collected were particularly expensive. Just always looking for good deals and willing to driving 200+ miles for them.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#478

Post by goto11 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #325
hiq wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never understood why people hate IKEA. Did you read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA#Criticisms ? There seems to be many reasons to dislike the company, even as a happy customer. One thing that stuck with me is this: "The IKEA group has a complex corporate structure, which members of the European Parliament have alleged was designed to avoid over €1 billion in tax payments over the 2009–2014 period." It seems e…

That’s a problem of unnecessarily complicated tax laws.

It is pretty simple that businesses have to pay more taxes than non-profits. Unethical businesses mususing this for tax evasion force legislation to create more complex laws to prevent such tricks.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#479

Post by gautamcgoel »

lettergram wrote: post #241

Gotta say that isn’t that much land, I’ve been looking at land with a couple friends. I can get 1,000 acres of land with lumber for probably $800-$2000 per acre. Really depends where, just saying 11,000 acres really isn’t much.

In what state were you looking?

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#480

Post by Fezzik »

pegasus wrote: post #459
Fezzik wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don’t like thinking this way... it’s difficult for a lot of people to grasp, for example, that if they have children and claim those children as a deduction they are thereby avoiding federal income taxes. Individuals avail themselves of the parts of the tax code that benefit them just like Big Corps do. You are not required to claim offspring as a deduction, so I guess by the logic of many people in this threa…

I most people wouldn't your example tax avoidance. That deduction is meant for that particular situation and claiming it is to be expected. Exploiting some complicated loop-hole is something else entirely. That's what most people would label as tax avoidance.

That is effectively my point. It may be worth reassessing your perspectives if you are comfortable saying “when I use the tax code to my benefit, it is okay” but “when he uses the tax code to his benefit, it is not okay.” Fundamentally it is the same thing. The only difference is the scale. I’m open to arguments as to why this conclusion is correct, but it really seems like the classic case of hating on Big Corps because they are big, not because they are doing something bad (which they often do, but not in this case. To my mind).
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