Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani • Hacker News Board

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#761

Post by bena » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #655

bena wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diebold is not a previous version of Dominion. Dominion acquired all of the material assets of Premier, which was a renamed Diebold, from ES&S due to an anti-trust lawsuit. Now, ES&S has issues, but you're not going to hear anything about that. Because ES&S machines are used in places like Kentucky, South Carolina, and Florida.

Sure, but this exception proves the point. There are indeed electronic voting machines widely considered to be suspect. So the notion that electronic voting machines could potentially be used to commit fraud in this election is not out of the question.

You were specifically trying to cast doubt on Dominion. And now that your statement has been outed as false, you're moving the goalposts to "voting machines in general".

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#762

Post by JshWright » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #647

JshWright wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very "conspiracy theory" type thinking you're engaging in... There is no evidence supporting any of the claims of fraud, any evidence that doesn't support your position is automatically dismissed as untrustworthy. Your claim seems to be that the Georgia Secretary of State (a staunch Republican and Trump supporter) along with the governor managed to pull off a huge operation to secretly change the results of t…

Isn't a stolen election precisely a conspiracy? I would prefer not to believe the election was stolen. I wanted Trump out, and Biden seems a reasonable replacement. I also debunked a number of the fallacious statistical 'proofs' the election was stolen. Believe me I would like nothing better than to believe everything is fine. But especially Navarro's report makes me unable to dismiss the allegations off hand with a…

Peter Navarro is a _highly_ partisan source, and not someone you should assume to be arguing in good faith.

Are there other, more credible, sources that are influencing your thinking? There is zero evidence supporting the claim of widespread fraud. Unless you have some evidence of some kind, it really seems like you would prefer to believe there is some vast conspiracy and you are writing off all the evidence to the contrary.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#763

Post by kevinmchugh » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

hajile wrote: post #176

javajosh wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"[Dominion will probable be] treated as a public figure." Why? I'd never heard of them before November 2020, and I imagine that is true for most people. I'd also be curious to learn more about what counts as "reckless disregard for the truth", if you're willing to share.

Most people (even people who follow politics) weren’t familiar with Obama before 2007 election cycle. The Covenant Kid was thrust into the media and when he sued for defamation, at least some judges accepted the claim that he was a public figure — even though he was suing over the very thing that thrust him into the national spotlight.

Obama became familiar to politics-followers with his 2004 DNC speech, which instantly short listed him for the next Democratic primary. It also made him so popular he went around the country campaigning for other candidates. That's very unusual for a state representative in their first high-profile race. (It helped that he was basically unopposed in his Senate bid)

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#764

Post by the_drunkard » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 3:06 PM UTC

justinzollars wrote: post #750

the_drunkard wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm very interested, especially given your perspective. The 2004 election also had its fair share of electronic voting criticism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_election_vo...

Sure, What I saw was this. The voter file was completely inaccurate. It was very common to go to a residence where voters: a. had moved b. had died c. had multiple 12+ voters currently registered at one apartment address, none of whom live there. From my perspective there are real issues with sending unsolicited mail in ballots to homes because the government does such a bad job managing the voter file. Often it is d…

> Based on this experience, I strongly support voting in person, with an ID.

Shhh, a view like this will get you banned from Twitter... ;)

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#765

Post by tgb » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

mountainboy wrote: post #299

tgb wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern machines differ from old ones is a very significant way: they give you a paper ballot that you - the voter - can verify before submitting.

I am not an expert but what I've read is that in the Dominion system, when a Ballot Marking Device is used, it generates a QR code representing the vote in addition to the human readable ballot. Next, the ballot reader machine reads the QR code, not the human readable portion. Assuming this is true, it would be simple to modify the printing software such that the QR code vote is different from the human readable vote…

Exactly: it gets caught when doing a hand recount. A hand recount was done in Georgia this year, for example. There were no issues. The conspiracy theories were successfully disproven.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#766

Post by adictator » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

wolfram74 wrote: post #113

adictator wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would anyone know they are baseless unless a proper investigation is conducted independently? What about the thousands of sworn affidavits? Surely, ALL of them can't be lying.

From my understanding 1) many of those affidavits were just hear say with little corroborating evidence, extreme claims "The US government is fundamentally illegitimate" requires more extreme evidence than "I heard a guy who said they were a poll watch saw things go weird" 2) and other witnesses wildly embellished their credibility, Joshua Merritt, aka "Spider" aka "Spyder" was listed as a military intelligence exper…

It's quite obvious you have never read even one of those affidavits. Vote for or support whoever you want, but try to side with truth at the very least.

The affidavits are very explicit - they directly call out names and roles. They are specific in what was actually witnessed. Go through them if you really care about truth. Otherwise we have nothing to discuss.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#767

Post by andrewflnr » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #664

andrewflnr wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a cop-out. Other countries seem to be able to have voter identification, the US should be capable of it, too. Start by making the identity card free-as-in-beer, bonus points for not requiring a permanent address.

"Start by making the identity card free-as-in-beer..." The people putting forward voter ID laws usually do the opposite. They want to make obtaining an ID more difficult and make that ID a requirement to vote. If we just say "getting and ID should be easy" but don't actually make it easy, and then we increase voter ID requirements, we are disenfranchising voters.

Doing it right is the best way to foil the ones trying to do it wrong.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#768

Post by MuseHorizon » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #469

I think it's nuts for a modern democracy to allow for anything but open source software being used to count paper ballots with chain-of-custody records, voter ID validation, biometric markings, and redacted ballots being published on the web for all to view and count independently. Software systems can easily be hacked, and it isn't easy to inspect and tell. A vote is a one time, one sided transaction. It's not as ea…

This. > I think it's nuts for a modern democracy to allow for anything but open source software being used to count paper ballots.. I cannot agree more.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#769

Post by david927 » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

kreeben wrote: post #752

david927 wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a John Oliver episode from a year ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svEuG_ekNT0

That clip does not show massive failure. Does it show failure? Yes. Is it massive? No. Did the US court system show massive fraud? No. Did they show fraud that wasn't massive but could still have changed the outcome of the election? No. Were you cheated out of winning the election? A thousand times no.

> Did the US court system show massive fraud?

It was never heard in court. I think that's what people are upset about. If they felt it had its day in court, they would feel differently. Instead, they have the media patting their heads explaining that "it's all fine." Fraud didn't have to be proven; it simply had to be shown to have been possible. The question is whether protections were breached that keep fraud from not being possible.

Listen, I'm a "Bernie Sanders" Progressive. I didn't vote because both candidates were too conservative for me. I don't really have a horse in this race.

That said, this clip shows that the US didn't take its electoral systems seriously. Georgia hasn't applied a security patch since 2012? Really? And you and the entire media are telling me that it wasn't possible when this clip is pretty clear that it wasn't just possible but fairly easy.

It reminds me of when a blockbuster film comes out and it's a stinker, but a lot of money was dropped on it. So there's an effort to make up the opening weekend by having the media sing its praises. "'Cats' is an amazing film!" But it doesn't work. Your strategy isn't working and won't work. The only way forward is to let it have its day in court.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#770

Post by tshaddox » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #644

edgyquant wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t know it was a crime isn’t a proper legal defense

That's not the defence though. The defence is 'I legitimately believed the election was stolen in Georgia, therefore, pressuring state officials to investigate said issues' doesn't itself constitute a crime. It's entirely plausible that people 'get things wrong' in the real world. But once you have a guy who will believe everything that's to his benefit, and claim that everything not to his credit is a lie ... well t…

> The defence is 'I legitimately believed the election was stolen in Georgia, therefore, pressuring state officials to investigate said issues' doesn't itself constitute a crime.

You can’t kill someone because you think you are acting in self-defense. You have to actually be acting in self-defense. Moreover, pressuring officials to manufacture fake evidence, or act as if they had evidence they don’t have, surely ought to be illegal even if would have been possible to find real evidence.