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Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

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Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#751

Post by nl »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #688
ashtonkem wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burden of proof is on the accuser, and when the Trump side arrived in court over 60 times they didn’t bring any evidence . Occam’s razor says they don’t have any actual evidence, since if they did they would have brought it to court.

While I absolutely agree, it was disappointing that states didn’t go out of their way to prove Biden won, because now we have nearly 1/2 the country that isn’t quite sure. I get what the laws are and mostly why they are. I just think elections should be a system without question, regardless how ridiculous the claim is. It should be trivial to without question and verifiably prove them wrong.

They did go out of their way. Look at the efforts Georgia went to - extra hands counts etc.

Didn't make any difference at all. It's very easy to throw doubt on something when people want it to be wrong.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#752

Post by kreeben »

david927 wrote: post #353
kreeben wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> these machines have been shown to be massively flawed That statement goes against everything I've read about voting in the U.S.A. However, I don't think I have actually read everything. What did you read? Is there a link that I can follow?

Here's a John Oliver episode from a year ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svEuG_ekNT0

That clip does not show massive failure. Does it show failure? Yes. Is it massive? No.

Did the US court system show massive fraud? No. Did they show fraud that wasn't massive but could still have changed the outcome of the election? No.

Were you cheated out of winning the election? A thousand times no.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#753

Post by dragonwriter »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #688
ashtonkem wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burden of proof is on the accuser, and when the Trump side arrived in court over 60 times they didn’t bring any evidence . Occam’s razor says they don’t have any actual evidence, since if they did they would have brought it to court.

While I absolutely agree, it was disappointing that states didn’t go out of their way to prove Biden won, because now we have nearly 1/2 the country that isn’t quite sure. I get what the laws are and mostly why they are. I just think elections should be a system without question, regardless how ridiculous the claim is. It should be trivial to without question and verifiably prove them wrong.

> it was disappointing that states didn’t go out of their way to prove Biden won,

Why should they go out of their way? They have a process. They followed the process. They followed the process of handling challenges to the process (of which there were an inordinate number.) If that doesn't prove it, nothing more is going to.

> because now we have nearly 1/2 the country that isn’t quite sure.

The polls I’ve seen put it closer to 1/4-1/3, not “nearly 1/2”.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#754

Post by enkid »

luxuryballs wrote: post #668
enkid wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any evidence of any of this? If so, why was this not presented in any of the 60 court cases?

You can look up each case and see what the rulings were, in some cases the lawsuits were dismissed before evidence could be presented. I have seen other people claim this and get buried which confuses me, is it just not ok to talk about the idea that there was election fraud which has been noticed but not confirmed? It should be OK to talk about this, especially in a democracy.

You provided a long list of claims. I asked for evidence of one and an explanation for why the legal system hasn't done anything with this evidence since it has been massively litigated. The burden of proof is in you to prove your claims. You can't just say "fraud" and not provide evidence then hide behind diversity of ideas. It is damaging to the stability of the US to claim fraud. What you say has consequences. So either put up or shutbup.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#755

Post by enkid »

jb775 wrote: post #720
luxuryballs wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can look up each case and see what the rulings were, in some cases the lawsuits were dismissed before evidence could be presented. I have seen other people claim this and get buried which confuses me, is it just not ok to talk about the idea that there was election fraud which has been noticed but not confirmed? It should be OK to talk about this, especially in a democracy.

Exactly. Everyone seems to agree that diversity is a good thing that leads to better overall outcomes, but then some of those people think that doesn't apply to diversity of ideas. Much of America's success can be attributed to being a melting pot of all types of people, and the mix of ideas they brought to the table. This recent trend of extreme censorship and "cancel culture" is bad for everyone long term, even if…

Asking for evidence to claims of fraud is "cancel culture" or shutting down diversity of ideas? That makes no sense.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#756

Post by standardUser »

luxuryballs wrote: post #671
standardUser wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Start by making the identity card free-as-in-beer..." The people putting forward voter ID laws usually do the opposite. They want to make obtaining an ID more difficult and make that ID a requirement to vote. If we just say "getting and ID should be easy" but don't actually make it easy, and then we increase voter ID requirements, we are disenfranchising voters.

Yeah but those people existing doesn’t change the actual merits of the idea itself.

If the end result is that someone who could vote in the last election cannot vote in the next election, we need a better idea.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#757

Post by maxerickson »

luxuryballs wrote: post #671
standardUser wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Start by making the identity card free-as-in-beer..." The people putting forward voter ID laws usually do the opposite. They want to make obtaining an ID more difficult and make that ID a requirement to vote. If we just say "getting and ID should be easy" but don't actually make it easy, and then we increase voter ID requirements, we are disenfranchising voters.

Yeah but those people existing doesn’t change the actual merits of the idea itself.

Which idea?

Requiring id and then making it hard to get doesn't have a lot of merit if there aren't a bunch of people exploiting the lack of id checks.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#758

Post by xerxespoy »

wvenable wrote: post #565
xerxespoy wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree such threads presently have limited value, hence suggestions granting readers greater dominion over them. Sans, excessive polarisation remains a risk for any topic.

Is excessive polarization an actual problem here? It doesn't seem that way to me. It seems mostly there are butt-hurt people who don't like that their opinions are unpopular, unhelpful, or illogical while everyone else (on whatever side of the issue) is happily commenting. The only times I've ever been downvoted excessively, I've deserved it.

It depends when you ask. Most times checking this thread it's been dire. The current top 3 commenters, comprising the first page of comments:

"The problem is that it's not totally clear whether Giuliani believed any of his crazy-talk. It may actually be the case that Giuliani is just off his rocker."

"I think it's nuts for a modern democracy to allow for anything but open source software being used to count paper ballots with chain-of-custody records, voter ID validation, biometric markings, and redacted ballots being published on the web for all to view and count independently."

"I hope whatever happens with these lawsuits it chills the baseless accusations of voter fraud used to undermine voter confidence in our democracy"

It's the definition of polarisation, entirely one-sided views, and each side demonstrably not thinking impartially. The first and third threads are largely echo-chambers with heavily-downvoted opposing views (which are often reasonable). All threads have some useful discussion, but its divisive opposite comes in seemingly combative/reactive waves that are stark in their coordination.

A community rooted in computer security (and AI) shouldn't be reliant on the naive idea that each anonymous online forum account represents one real person.

The suggestions made initially might go some way toward mitigating harm resultant from this reality of our current internet, which - thus far, almost exclusively for some specific political matters - HN seems to pointedly ignore.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#759

Post by javagram »

yters wrote: post #491
javagram wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems trivial to 'randomly' sample a select subset of the votes. And that does nothing to guard against vote dumps. Non existent voters cannot validate their votes. Incorrect. Voter rolls have information about who voted, and this information is public record. You can simply call up a random sample of recorded 2020 voters in Georgia and ask them to confirm that they voted in the election. There is no way to undetec…

Are the specific votes public record? If not, it is impossible to verify votes were recorded correctly. But the addresses being public record is interesting. If that information is public record then it would be easy for citizens to randomly verify enough records to ascertain whether enough votes were dumped to make a difference. If what you say is correct then I can try verifying it myself. Why has no one publicly d…

> UPDATE: I just checked the GA website, and all it gives me is voter IDs and whom they voted for. No way I can verify vote fraud did not occur from that information. No addresses or names.

I would suggest that if you weren’t able to find this information using google, you should think about what that means for your research skills and the skills/knowledge of those who create and propagate the voter fraud lies. Some humility might be in order as to why experts don’t think there was fraud, but others who don’t understand how elections work do....

https://sos.ga.gov/index.php/elections/voter_history_files

“ You will need a voter file in order to associate a voter with his or her voter history. The voter and history files both contain the voter registration number and can be linked on this field.

For more information on voter lists, please send an email to AJackson@sos.ga.gov with the subject “Voter List Files.””

https://www.11alive.com/article/news/verify/verify-can-your-...

“ So is it true your neighbors or friends can find out if you voted? 11Alive verified with the Secretary of State’s website that under Georgia law, “voter registration lists are available to the public and contain the following information: voter name, residential address, mailing address if different, race, gender, registration date, and last voting date.” The information is available by order for a fee on the Secretary of State’s Office website, though is not to be used for commercial purposes.”

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#760

Post by javagram »

yters wrote: post #649
JshWright wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the specifics of how people vote is not publicly available. That is important, in order to prevent voter coercion.

How exactly is the possibility of vote dumping and vote flipping eliminated?

> How exactly is the possibility of vote dumping and vote flipping eliminated?

You cannot simply add ballots to the election as the totals would then be incorrect. (There would be more votes than people recorded as voting)

What is “Vote Dumping”? Do you mean inserting fraudulent paper ballots into the stored ballots to be counted?

The election was recorded on physical paper ballots. Are you alleging a vast conspiracy of bipartisan election workers and Republican Secretary of State monitors to replace the legitimate physical ballots with fake ones?

All ballots were hand counted and the initial Dominion machine count was confirmed accurate, so the allegation would be a conspiracy where Dominion scanners inaccurately counted the original paper ballots, then the paper ballots were secretly replaced with fakes to match the inaccurate Dominion counts? And this would have had to been done state-wide without a single whistleblower. It’s a ridiculous conspiracy theory if you try to write it out.

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