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Android Ported to RISC-V

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Re: Android Ported to RISC-V

#81

Post by alexhutcheson »

tipsysquid wrote: post #76
alexhutcheson wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be true, but I wouldn't expect the microarchitectures that achieve this performance to be free (in either the "gratis" or "libre" senses of that word). Designing a superscalar application processor requires an enormous amount of work by engineers who are experts in their field, and that work needs to be compensated somehow. The ISA may be open, but there is no requirement for the microarchitecture implemen…

> I wouldn't expect the microarchitectures that achieve this performance to be free (in either the "gratis" or "libre" senses of that word) I agree with you on this as an eventuality of risc-v. But my casual following of the space leads me to believe that a high-performance open baseline of these architectures will be available and customization/special purpose of these archs will be for purchase. I'm hopeful some of…

I think you’re likely underestimating how complex a modern microarchitecture like the A78 or X1 is compared to the RISC-V cores that have been open sourced so far. It’s unclear to me what organizations would have the resources to develop something like the A78 for RISC-V and would also be happy giving it away for free.

Note that in the ARM world everyone except Apple and Nvidia have given up on developing their own microarchitectures - they all just license one from ARM and maybe apply some customizations on top.

Re: Android Ported to RISC-V

#82

Post by brokenkebab »

nix23 wrote: post #36
f00zz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Soviet computers were shoddy copies of Western models. DEC even left Easter eggs in Cyrillic on their silicon to Russian reverse-engineers: https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html

But Computers are not everything. The US did some good tec but the SU too, it's not just black and white.

SU indeed had bright minds who had clever ideas, but its economy favored copying over own innovation. So outside of military field SU didn't have much to boast. "Made in USSR" was used mostly in sarcastic phrases by its own population.

Re: Android Ported to RISC-V

#83

Post by bluGill »

brokenkebab wrote: post #79
bluGill wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire world benefited from slaves for a long time. Don't pick on the US, it was a universal practice. It isn't done now not for moral reasons (you can read the moral arguments of slave owners for a different moral perspective - it is "interesting"), but economic. Slaves need to be fed when they are not working, so better to let them figure that out for themselves when you don't have a job.

USSR used slave workforce in the recent times, and didn't care that much about feeding them. If slaves are cheaply replaceable, economic incentives alone won't likely produce any reason for liberation.

In general slaves are hard/expensive enough to get that you keep them around. You need to go to war (which can kill your people, or even cause you to lose and become the salve), or buy them from someone else who did that work. Plus you need to teach them to do their work, which means a fair amount of effort if you are just going to starve them. (though this is also why slaves generally were basic manual labor and anything highly skilled).

Though you are correct, there have been various concerns for the welfare of the slaves over history, and cost of getting more is a major factor into that.

Re: Android Ported to RISC-V

#84

Post by sangnoir »

d3ckard wrote: post #15
varispeed wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know that nothing stops them from rounding up engineers are move them to a camp with an order to develop certain technology in exchange for bread and water and that their families will live? Soviet Union for example used to build entire cities where they crammed engineers from all over the Union, however rather than being exploited, the engineers had special privileges. But that easily could change with a stro…

It's hard for people to be creative under pressure. Half the work in management of software companies is managing employee stress so they can do their work efficiently. My point is precisely that to get creativeness, you have to create right environment and that environment leads the way to less authoritarian rule.

> It's hard for people to be creative under pressure.

How is it then, that inventions seem to accelerate during times of war? WWII alone saw the invention of, or massive improvements to rocketry, the jet engine, cruise missiles, Radar, and the Atomic bomb

Re: Android Ported to RISC-V

#85

Post by ncmncm »

bluGill wrote: post #83
brokenkebab wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USSR used slave workforce in the recent times, and didn't care that much about feeding them. If slaves are cheaply replaceable, economic incentives alone won't likely produce any reason for liberation.

In general slaves are hard/expensive enough to get that you keep them around. You need to go to war (which can kill your people, or even cause you to lose and become the salve), or buy them from someone else who did that work. Plus you need to teach them to do their work, which means a fair amount of effort if you are just going to starve them. (though this is also why slaves generally were basic manual labor and any…

USSR (well within living memory!) generally preferred to starve its slaves. Prisoners-of-war released back to Russia after WWII were sent to the GULags as deserters -- because how did they survive, without collaborating?

One of Socrates's rants on record is deriding an argument that negligence causing your slave to die should be a crime.

Re: Android Ported to RISC-V

#86

Post by simonh »

sudosysgen wrote: post #66
analognoise wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're arguing it's cheaper in the case where nobody openly knows Roscosmo's numbers, nobody can obtain the services at those numbers, then comparing the cost at the FACTORY for Soyuz to the price of LAUNCH for SpaceX - before accounting for using the same rocket TEN TIMES - and still claiming Soyuz is cheaper? Edit: Parent filled in data below, it looks like Soyuz in cheaper. :)

We actually can optain the numbers. Roscomos is a public agency. They buy the rockets from the Progress join venture, and a public the exact cost of both the rocket and the launch. The cost of only the rocket is around 5 million dollars. The total cost in 2018 for a Soyuz launch to Roscosmos is 3.5 to 4 billion 2018 rubles, which is around 20-23 million dollars per seat. The cost is kind of at the factory because Ros…

> even though the SpaceX rocket is reusable.

As I pointed out already, the original NASA contract was signed long before SpaceX recovered a single core. Tose prices don't take into account reusability at all. SpaceX already has two pre-flown crew rated first stages ready to fly again. NASA has recently approved using them, and refurbished capsules, for upcoming missions. The cost calculation today is nothing like 2014 when SpaceX signed Commercial Crew.

Re: Android Ported to RISC-V

#87

Post by nickik »

numpad0 wrote: post #20
varispeed wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know that nothing stops them from rounding up engineers are move them to a camp with an order to develop certain technology in exchange for bread and water and that their families will live? Soviet Union for example used to build entire cities where they crammed engineers from all over the Union, however rather than being exploited, the engineers had special privileges. But that easily could change with a stro…

There is sense of mystique associated with the Soviet Union but the best they managed to build were AKs, Soyuz, Chernobyl, all interesting and robust in its own ways but not all that competitive in terms of performance, so,

The Soviets didn't actually round their scientists up and force them to work. That's basically just US propaganda version of Soviet system.

Not to say that never happened, but its incredibly reductionist and inaccurate.

Re: Android Ported to RISC-V

#88

Post by nickik »

varispeed wrote: post #12
AlexAltea wrote: post #8

Related: https://www.cnet.com/news/chip-designer-arm-ditches-huawei-b... Unsurprisingly, this has been done by Alibaba-owned T-Head Semiconductor. The obvious result if Chinese vendors start facing obstacles to obtain licenses to manufacture ARM-based chips (or any other non-Chinese architecture). How can anyone expect that software/hardware-bans to global superpowers can result in anything but their software/hardwar…

The problem is that restrictions are not thought through. If they were banned from using Android altogether, they wouldn't be able (legally) to port it on that architecture in the first place. The same goes with the RISC-V as well - the law could be written to allow only certain countries to use it freely. These obstacles are kind of similar to patents. When you discover something and then you learn someone was first…

> I wonder how authors of RISC-V must feel when their architecture is being appropriated by a country that violates human rights.

Like the US? Yeah that probably does bother them.

I mean the US has killed 1000x more people and was engaged in far, far more wars in the last 50 years. Destabalisng whole regions, overthrowing governments all over the place, supported some of the most vile people ever (and still do).

But I guess morality only matters if you are bad to your own population.

Re: Android Ported to RISC-V

#89

Post by nickik »

varispeed wrote: post #22
littlestymaar wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot legally ban them from using Android. Google play store and other proprietary apps, sure, but the actual android OS is free software. > The same goes with the RISC-V as well - the law could be written to allow only certain countries to use it freely And how would the US enforce such a law abroad? Even admitting that European countries (UK included), Japan, South Korea, and most of latin America decided to p…

They could copy and paste laws that are used for illegal drugs enforcement - just replace drugs with Android from China and then force other countries to support that.

China actually supports these laws for their own reasons as well. If China made all drugs legal there would be nothing anybody could do to stop them selling or buying drugs.

Re: Android Ported to RISC-V

#90

Post by nickik »

alexhutcheson wrote: post #63
bhouston wrote: post #53

I expect RISC-V to match Apple's ARM implementations efficiency/speed within the decade. This is a long time but it is a very lofty goal as Apple's ARM implementation is a moving target to RISC-V has to move faster. But it likely will come close to converging around 5 years from now -- at least somewhat competitive in core count and single core performance. Interesting times. I look forward to the first AMD Ryzen-lik…

That might be true, but I wouldn't expect the microarchitectures that achieve this performance to be free (in either the "gratis" or "libre" senses of that word). Designing a superscalar application processor requires an enormous amount of work by engineers who are experts in their field, and that work needs to be compensated somehow. The ISA may be open, but there is no requirement for the microarchitecture implemen…

There are benefits to having an Open ISA even without all cores being open.
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