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Wild lynx could be reintroduced into Scottish Highlands

theguardian.com

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Re: Wild lynx could be reintroduced into Scottish Highlands

#61

Post by rmah »

DonaldFisk wrote: post #35
eloff wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lynx are native to Scotland. They're simply being reintroduced.

Were native. About 500 years ago. Ecosystems change. Bears and wolves were also native to Scotland once but we'd think twice about reintroducing them .

Why think twice? There are many many large predators in the US and we get along fine. The US outside of Alaska has thousands of wolves, 10's of thousands of mountain lions, 100's of thousands of bears, millions of crocodiles, millions of coyotes, etc... no major problems. And they're not just in the sparsely inhabited west, densely populated north-east states like NY, PA, NJ, MA, CT ,etc. have thousands of bears and coyotes (though admittedly not many wolves).

Re: Wild lynx could be reintroduced into Scottish Highlands

#63

Post by rmah »

youngtaff wrote: post #32
almog wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same debate is going over in the Pyrenees regarding reintroduction of bears. Farmers fear for their sheep (seem to be especially the case on the French side from what I've gathered) but guard dogs seem to reduce their losses tremendously. My main source of information is Steve Cracknell who's a writes about rewilding of the Pyrenees as well as hiking. I encountered his blog and twitter as part of my preparation f…

Sheep farming is pretty uneconomic in the UK, and sheep are destructive beasts so lynx reducing their numbers might be a good thing

Um, then why are there 22.5 mil sheep in the UK for just 67mil people? Contrast this to 5.2 mil sheep in the US for 330 mil people. It must be at least marginally profitable for so many sheep to be raised in the UK (or are agriculture subsidies really that large and widespread in the UK?)

Re: Wild lynx could be reintroduced into Scottish Highlands

#64

Post by pvaldes »

peteretep wrote: post #58
pvaldes wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're not endangered, they are aggressive predators, and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them Three falses in a row. First, Eurasian Lynx is so endangered in UK that is in fact locally extinct. You can't be more endangered than that. Moreover, Spanish lynx is still one of the most critically endangered mammals in the planet Aggressive is relative. IMHO, a pack of wild dogs pursuing a zebra for a cou…

What the actual... > Eurasian Lynx is so endangered in UK that is in fact locally extinct. You can't be more endangered than that. Eurasian Lynx is listed as “Least Concern”. That there aren’t any in Scotland has no bearing on this. This is a bewildering comment. > Aggressive is relative ... some crap about zebras It will be _the_ apex predator in the UK. It can bring down a deer. Wild comparisons to Africa and pack…

A species can be common in some place and critically endangered in other at the same time. Wildlife managers are enough smart to distinguish between the global and local situations.

And talking about that, I had seen before hunters bragging about how they can solve in a week what the stupid biologists were unable to solve in ten years. They always say the same.

Ok. Do it. Try it. I'll be waiting here.

I still haven't seen -one- real problem solved correctly by the bang bang experts, only lots of money burnt to achieve nothing. The list of problems that they create for other people is endless and well documented, from dozens of new diseases introduced, to game species extinct for greed, to entire populations of preys collapsing after removing the predators.

Re: Wild lynx could be reintroduced into Scottish Highlands

#65

Post by andrewflnr »

theptip wrote: post #13
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #7

Lynx are extremely photogenic, but I can't help wondering - why? They're not endangered, they are aggressive predators, and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them. The fact that they were common half a millennium ago when the ecosystem was very different doesn't seem particularly relevant. So if this is just for tourism and/or as a vanity project and there are no solid ecological or scientific reasons, I'…

> and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them. If you've visited Scotland's countryside, you might have noticed the sweeping vistas of grassy green fields, yellow bushy marshes, and purple heather -- and a conspicuous absence of any trees. It's a very unnatural landscape, historically speaking. Scotland (along with the rest of the UK) cut down most of their old growth forests in the industrial revolution,…

Lynx are not large predators. I can't see them making a dent in the deer population.

Ed: I stand corrected, I guess.

Re: Wild lynx could be reintroduced into Scottish Highlands

#66

Post by SllX »

andrewflnr wrote: post #65
theptip wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them. If you've visited Scotland's countryside, you might have noticed the sweeping vistas of grassy green fields, yellow bushy marshes, and purple heather -- and a conspicuous absence of any trees. It's a very unnatural landscape, historically speaking. Scotland (along with the rest of the UK) cut down most of their old growth forests in the industrial revolution,…

Lynx are not large predators. I can't see them making a dent in the deer population. Ed: I stand corrected, I guess.

Apparently they hunt and kill deer and reindeer in Finland.[1] I would have thought the same but seeing your comment prompted me to do a search. Found a handful of YouTube vids claiming the featured Lynx killed the deer they were recording, but none of the first 5 I checked featured a Lynx performing the kill, only the eating.

[1] http://www.largecarnivores.fi/species/lynx/lynxs-diet-and-hu...

Re: Wild lynx could be reintroduced into Scottish Highlands

#67

Post by peanut_merchant »

theptip wrote: post #13
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #7

Lynx are extremely photogenic, but I can't help wondering - why? They're not endangered, they are aggressive predators, and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them. The fact that they were common half a millennium ago when the ecosystem was very different doesn't seem particularly relevant. So if this is just for tourism and/or as a vanity project and there are no solid ecological or scientific reasons, I'…

> and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them. If you've visited Scotland's countryside, you might have noticed the sweeping vistas of grassy green fields, yellow bushy marshes, and purple heather -- and a conspicuous absence of any trees. It's a very unnatural landscape, historically speaking. Scotland (along with the rest of the UK) cut down most of their old growth forests in the industrial revolution,…

There is an excellent documentary that covers a broad range of perspectives on this issue called "The Cull - Scotland's deer dilemma" https://thecullfilm.com/

As someone born and raised in the highlands, I found it well balanced as well as providing a realistic depiction of the Highland winter.

Re: Wild lynx could be reintroduced into Scottish Highlands

#68

Post by SllX »

eloff wrote: post #36
jessaustin wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crossbows are easy to use and don't alarm neighbors. Venison is delicious and nutritious. Butchering a deer is a fun and educational project for the whole family, and requires very little equipment: knives and a big table, plus a tree limb and some rope for the initial skinning. This is yet another problem that people could solve for themselves, if enough of them cared to do so.

> Butchering a deer is a fun and educational project for the whole family I would find it gross and traumatic to the point where I might lose my lunch. I eat meat, but if I had to butcher my own meat I'd go vegetarian. I like your solution though, I'm surprised that the market doesn't just solve the problem to the point where we're worried about there being too few deer - is hunting limited or is there not enough dem…

Do it enough and you’ll get desensitized.

> I'm surprised that the market doesn't just solve the problem to the point where we're worried about there being too few deer

The market has solved the problem of food: it is plentiful, cheap and varied. That has decreased the need to hunt to the point that most[1] of those who do so are making a lifestyle choice that is not strictly economical but does in some way provide a respectable and different experience or quality of life they enjoy.

[1] As always I feel compelled to remind people that “most” is not a synonym for “all”.

Re: Wild lynx could be reintroduced into Scottish Highlands

#69

Post by peanut_merchant »

jessaustin wrote: post #24
mNovak wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deer seem to be a problem everywhere. In the US midwest they're all over the place.

Crossbows are easy to use and don't alarm neighbors. Venison is delicious and nutritious. Butchering a deer is a fun and educational project for the whole family, and requires very little equipment: knives and a big table, plus a tree limb and some rope for the initial skinning. This is yet another problem that people could solve for themselves, if enough of them cared to do so.

Most land in Scotland is owned by large estate owners (think castles and thousands of acres).

We have extremely strict gun control and hunting is usually limited to employees of the estates or visitors who have paid a hefty fee to hunt on the estate. Hunting here is much more controlled and limited than it is in North America or elsewhere.

Source: Highlands born and raised, live in Canada.

Re: Wild lynx could be reintroduced into Scottish Highlands

#70

Post by peteretep »

pvaldes wrote: post #64
peteretep wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the actual... > Eurasian Lynx is so endangered in UK that is in fact locally extinct. You can't be more endangered than that. Eurasian Lynx is listed as “Least Concern”. That there aren’t any in Scotland has no bearing on this. This is a bewildering comment. > Aggressive is relative ... some crap about zebras It will be _the_ apex predator in the UK. It can bring down a deer. Wild comparisons to Africa and pack…

A species can be common in some place and critically endangered in other at the same time. Wildlife managers are enough smart to distinguish between the global and local situations. And talking about that, I had seen before hunters bragging about how they can solve in a week what the stupid biologists were unable to solve in ten years. They always say the same. Ok. Do it. Try it. I'll be waiting here. I still haven't…

> A species can be common in some place and critically endangered in other at the same time

It is not critically endangered in the UK, it is several centuries extinct. The world is in no danger of losing this animal, the ecosystem in the UK has already adapted

Next up you pretend like animal culling is some new practice dreamed up by hunting enthusiasts.

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