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Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

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Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#81

Post by evilduck »

MetaWhirledPeas wrote: post #23
cambalache wrote: post #6

OK I love this, but I am pretty sure my chances of getting a mac in the future are zero. From which side should I expect the PC response? Intel? AMD? Microsoft? ARM? Samsung? I think Apple willingly or not has just obliterated the whole consumer pc market.

They have bitten off an even bigger chunk of the meal they had nearly finished already: - Developers - Creatives - Dutiful citizens of The Ecosystem What they are no closer to biting off is gamers and hardware enthusiasts. Anyone who actually needs to open their PC for any purpose whatsoever. I know Apple wants to be the glossy Eve to all the PC market's Wall-E's, but I will continue to shun them forcefully as long a…

Wow, obvious bias much? Great way to engage in reasonable, level headed conversation is to lead with telling people they should be ashamed for not holding your values and opinions. I honestly can't think of a better way to demonstrate to most people why they _should_ get a Mac than to just show off comments like yours.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#82

Post by gonehome »

The_Colonel wrote: post #72
gonehome wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My prediction is x86 is dead. External GPUs will remain and I think Nvidia has an advantage in that niche currently. The reason stack ownership matters is because it allows tight integration which leads to better chip design (and better performance/efficiency). Windows has run on ARM for a while for example, but it sucks. The reason it sucks is complicated but largely has to do with bad incentives and coordination pr…

> My prediction is x86 is dead. I don't see that. At least in corporate environment with bazillion legacy apps, x86 will be the king for the foreseeable future. And frankly I don't really see the pull of ARM/M1 anyway. I mean, I can get a laptop with extremely competitive Ryzen for way cheaper than MacBook with M1. The only big advantage I see is the battery, but that's not very relevant for many use cases - most peo…

This is the first release targeting macOS, I'm not pretending their chips for phones don't exist - but the M1 is still version 0 for macs.

> "And frankly I don't really see the pull of ARM/M1 anyway. I mean, I can get a laptop with extremely competitive Ryzen for way cheaper than MacBook with M1..."

Respectfully, I strongly disagree with this - to me it's equivalent to someone defending the keyboards on a palm treo. This is a major shift in capability and we're just seeing the start of that curve where x86 is nearing the end.

“No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.”

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#83

Post by varispeed »

tenebrisalietum wrote: post #51
varispeed wrote: post #48

So Apple strategy seems to be to commit as little resources as possible to their products knowing that "open source" developers will do their work for free thus Apple will not have to pay extra salaries and taxes? I don't understand why people bother working for free to e.g. run Linux or even write a GPU driver? I get this is a nice developer challenge, and being involved with Apple stuff is still being seen as "cool…

Maybe because ... those developers want to use Linux on hardware they bought and own instead of the built-in operating system? The developers are helping themselves, not Apple. Apple could save some money by selling bare metal M1's without an OS installed, but then it might get into the hands of people who want a "cheaper Mac but your hacker friend can get it working" and it would damage their brand, so I see why the…

Well, is this M1 really _that_ good to commit considerable amount of time into it instead of working on something more meaningful or benefitting ones personal life more? Are they able to make a commercial product out of it? Unless it gives the person the same kick as fishing or building Lego - but these hobbies don't have a side effect of filling the pockets of a big co.

The idea about "cheaper Mac" is weak, because you can already buy a cheap Mac - it's not going to be the latest gen, but let's take into account that Intel has not made big progress in the last couple of years and then M1 is actually on the affordable side.

Isn't actually more damaging to their brand that they don't support their products that will benefit professional users and that they rely on people doing work for free and thus Apple is avoiding paying fair share?

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#84

Post by nzmsv »

monkmartinez wrote: post #73
gonehome wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My prediction is x86 is dead. External GPUs will remain and I think Nvidia has an advantage in that niche currently. The reason stack ownership matters is because it allows tight integration which leads to better chip design (and better performance/efficiency). Windows has run on ARM for a while for example, but it sucks. The reason it sucks is complicated but largely has to do with bad incentives and coordination pr…

Ok, I still have questions. To start... How would a city with tens of thousands of computers transition to ARM in the near future? The apps that run 911 Dispatch systems and run critical infrastructure all over the world are all on x86 hardware. Millions if not Billions of dollars in investment, training, and configuration. These are bespoke systems. The military industrial complex basically custom chips and x86. The…

Notice how the only counter examples you came up with are legacy applications. This is the first sign of a declining market. No, Intel will not go out of business tomorrow. But they are still dead.

The growth markets will drive the price of ARM parts down and performance up. Meanwhile x86 will stagnate and become more and more expensive due to declining volumes. Eventually, yes, this will apply enough pressure even on niche applications like engineering apps to port to ARM. The military will likely be the last holdout.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#85

Post by evilduck »

bonestamp2 wrote: post #36
MetaWhirledPeas wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have bitten off an even bigger chunk of the meal they had nearly finished already: - Developers - Creatives - Dutiful citizens of The Ecosystem What they are no closer to biting off is gamers and hardware enthusiasts. Anyone who actually needs to open their PC for any purpose whatsoever. I know Apple wants to be the glossy Eve to all the PC market's Wall-E's, but I will continue to shun them forcefully as long a…

> I assume the developer popularity is a result of the iPhone gold rush, which Apple exploited using exclusivity tactics. Therefore I consider it an abomination to see developers embrace the platform so thoroughly. That's not why most developers I know use macs. We use them because we got tired of spending a couple days a year (on average) unfucking our Windows machine after something goes wrong. When you're a develo…

On the gaming front, I've been trying GeForce Now recently and while it may not be great for competitive FPS games, it has otherwise destroyed any reason why I'd ever purchase another gaming PC unless they start jacking up the monthly price. It works on basically all platforms (including my iOS devices), it doesn't spin up my MBP's fans and doesn't eat through battery life. I don't have to worry about ARM vs x86, I don't even get locked in to the platform like Stadia, it connects to Steam, Epic and GOG.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#86

Post by altcognito »

cambalache wrote: post #6

OK I love this, but I am pretty sure my chances of getting a mac in the future are zero. From which side should I expect the PC response? Intel? AMD? Microsoft? ARM? Samsung? I think Apple willingly or not has just obliterated the whole consumer pc market.

Apple willingly or not increased their market share? Seriously, the AstroTurf in this thread is off the charts.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#87

Post by shmerl »

cambalache wrote: post #6

OK I love this, but I am pretty sure my chances of getting a mac in the future are zero. From which side should I expect the PC response? Intel? AMD? Microsoft? ARM? Samsung? I think Apple willingly or not has just obliterated the whole consumer pc market.

Hardly. Apple has nothing to offer for high end gaming and I don't think they care about it.

For me it's Linux with AMD both for CPU and GPU.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#88

Post by PragmaticPulp »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #55

Everyone, remember that in 2019 Alyssa was in _High School_. Where do people get this knowledge? It's astounding. She was literally reverse-engineering Mali for Panfrost starting in her Sophomore year.

Truly impressive work.

> Where do people get this knowledge?

Time, hands-on experimentation, and focus.

Anecdotally, reverse engineering and low-level hacking felt more popular back in the 90s and early 2000s. Back then, there were fewer distractions to soak up the free time of young tech enthusiasts. Old IRC chatrooms feel like a trickle of distraction relative to the firehose of Twitter, Reddit, 24/7 news cycles, and modern distractions.

A common complaint among the younger engineers I mentor is that they feel like they never have enough time. It's strange to watch a young, single person without kids and with a cushy 9-5 (or often 11am to 5pm at modern flex/remote companies) job complain about lack of free time. Digging deeper, it's usually because they're so tapped in to social media, news, video games, and other digital distractions that their free time evaporates before they even think about planning their days out.

It's amazing what one can accomplish by simply sitting down and focusing on a problem. You may not reach the levels of someone like Alyssa, but you'll get much farther than you might expect. And most importantly, you probably won't miss the media firehose.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#89

Post by tambre »

wg0 wrote: post #37
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they're announcing a "platform". Smacks of managerial bottom-covering. Almost like forming a committee to investigate the problem. - where was this 1/2/10 years ago? - how would this address the fundamental CPU performance gap? - Intel has no competitive GPU offering, yet another glaring failure on their part - why would OEMs go along with this when Ryzen is a better CPU, GPU, aside from getting Intel bribes and t…

"I get Intel doesn't own the stack/vertical integration, but Intel could have devoted 1% of its revenue to a kickass Linux OS to keep Microsoft honest a long time ago and demonstrate its full hardware." Interesting point.. makes one wonder why didn't they do it while having a mountain of cash.

They do have something – Clear Linux [0]. Definitely not too mcuh investment, but they do differentiate by compiling packages for much newer instruction sets compared to other distros.

[0]: https://clearlinux.org/

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#90

Post by gonehome »

monkmartinez wrote: post #73
gonehome wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My prediction is x86 is dead. External GPUs will remain and I think Nvidia has an advantage in that niche currently. The reason stack ownership matters is because it allows tight integration which leads to better chip design (and better performance/efficiency). Windows has run on ARM for a while for example, but it sucks. The reason it sucks is complicated but largely has to do with bad incentives and coordination pr…

Ok, I still have questions. To start... How would a city with tens of thousands of computers transition to ARM in the near future? The apps that run 911 Dispatch systems and run critical infrastructure all over the world are all on x86 hardware. Millions if not Billions of dollars in investment, training, and configuration. These are bespoke systems. The military industrial complex basically custom chips and x86. The…

You make bets on where the puck is going, not on where it currently is.

"How would a city with tens of thousands of HDDs transition to SSDs in the near future?"

It happens over time as products move to compete.

Client side machines matter less, the server will transition to ARM because performance and power is better on RISC. The military industrial complex relies on government cloud contracts with providers that will probably move to ARM on the server side.

It's not necessarily rewriting for Apple hardware, but people that care about future performance will have to move to similar RISC hardware to remain competitive.

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