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Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

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Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#61

Post by gonehome »

monkmartinez wrote: post #56
gonehome wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might have to bite the bullet and get a mac - I don't see much promise from others in this space. Intel's CEO change may save them, but they're definitely facing an existential threat they've failed to adapt to for years. Amazon will move to ARM on servers and probably some decent design there, but that won't really reach the consumer hardware market (probably - though I suppose they could do something interestin…

Are you saying you don't see much promise for AMD, Intel and Nvidia in the GPU space or with computers in general? I had a hard time following your logic. Apple may own their stack, but there are a TON of use cases where that stack doesn't even form a blip on the radar of the people who purchase computer gear.

My prediction is x86 is dead.

External GPUs will remain and I think Nvidia has an advantage in that niche currently.

The reason stack ownership matters is because it allows tight integration which leads to better chip design (and better performance/efficiency).

Windows has run on ARM for a while for example, but it sucks. The reason it sucks is complicated but largely has to do with bad incentives and coordination problems between multiple groups. Apple doesn't have this problem.

As Apple's RISC design performance improvements (paired with extremely low power requirements) become more and more obvious x86 manufacturers will be left unable to compete. Cloud providers will move to ARM chipsets of their own design (see: https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/graviton/) and AMD/Intel will be on the path to extinction.

I'd argue Apple's M1 machines are already at this level and they're version 0 (if you haven't played with one you should).

This is an e-risk for Intel and AMD, they should have been preparing for this for the last decade, instead Intel doubled down on their old designs to maximize profit in the short term at the cost of extinction in the long term.

It's not an argument about individual consumer choice (though that will shift too), the entire market will move.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#62

Post by nzmsv »

monkmartinez wrote: post #56
gonehome wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might have to bite the bullet and get a mac - I don't see much promise from others in this space. Intel's CEO change may save them, but they're definitely facing an existential threat they've failed to adapt to for years. Amazon will move to ARM on servers and probably some decent design there, but that won't really reach the consumer hardware market (probably - though I suppose they could do something interestin…

Are you saying you don't see much promise for AMD, Intel and Nvidia in the GPU space or with computers in general? I had a hard time following your logic. Apple may own their stack, but there are a TON of use cases where that stack doesn't even form a blip on the radar of the people who purchase computer gear.

I think we'll see a lot of ARM use cases outside of the Apple stack and x86 is dead (but it will of course take its sweet time getting there). For the longest time everyone believed at a subconscious level that x86 was a prerequisite due to compatibility. Apple provided an existence proof that this is false. There is no longer a real need to hold onto the obsolete x86 design.

The only way for Intel and AMD to thrive in this new world is to throw away their key asset: expertise in x86 arcana. They will not do this (see Innovator's Dilemma for reasons why). As a result they will face a slow decline and eventual death.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#63

Post by monkmartinez »

astrange wrote: post #52
monkmartinez wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who cares if you have the darn thing plugged in anyway? Does the M1 outperform the Threadripper 3990x?

Personally I like the noise level in my room being 32 dB and don't like PCs having to run the fan at full speed to show the desktop picture.

That is fine and I get it. Just realize there are lots of people that need/want more power, variety, compatibility with a lower cost. Water cooling is plug and play these days for desktop rigs. The gaming laptop market has become shockingly good for professional level CAD/Engineering apps with the industry focused on drastically reducing noise levels (albeit still quite loud in comparison to fanless). Trade offs... trade offs as far as you can see...

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#64

Post by pjmlp »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #55

Everyone, remember that in 2019 Alyssa was in _High School_. Where do people get this knowledge? It's astounding. She was literally reverse-engineering Mali for Panfrost starting in her Sophomore year.

At the age of 10 I was coding for the Timex 2068, using books like these ones,

https://www.atariarchives.org/

Yes, they are for the Atari, just trying to make a point here.

So any smart kid in the age of Internet, instead of having what is available at the local library, is quite capable to build up the skills to achieve this kind of work at the high school level.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#65

Post by noizejoy »

chucky_z wrote: post #58
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #55

Everyone, remember that in 2019 Alyssa was in _High School_. Where do people get this knowledge? It's astounding. She was literally reverse-engineering Mali for Panfrost starting in her Sophomore year.

Where did you get your knowledge? With places like HackerNews along with folks like yourself and myself writing posts about this kind of stuff it becomes trivial to walk down a rabbit hole for anyone of any age. Think back to how much you accomplished when you were younger because you were walking in the footsteps of others. :)

> anyone of any age

and intelligence and education and intellectual curiosity and non-working time and energy/stamina ...

That Venn diagram ends up with a pretty small number of humans ...

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#66

Post by stefan_ »

unix_fan wrote: post #45
stefan_ wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also on a different process shrug

Process node improvements don’ty bring that much performance.

Given the massive drop in power consumption and therefore heat, they seem to bring inordinate amounts of performance in a mobile chip.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#67

Post by floatingatoll »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #55

Everyone, remember that in 2019 Alyssa was in _High School_. Where do people get this knowledge? It's astounding. She was literally reverse-engineering Mali for Panfrost starting in her Sophomore year.

When I was 5, my grandmother the edusoft programmer let me learn machine-code programming from one of her books.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#68

Post by cambalache »

vbezhenar wrote: post #33
cambalache wrote: post #6

OK I love this, but I am pretty sure my chances of getting a mac in the future are zero. From which side should I expect the PC response? Intel? AMD? Microsoft? ARM? Samsung? I think Apple willingly or not has just obliterated the whole consumer pc market.

What exactly do you expect? x86 is quite competitive. M1 might be slightly better, but it's not like it's miles ahead.

I want a return to the status-quo when for 80% (it could be even less but let's not dwell in the number) of the price of an Apple laptop I could get a windows/linux machine matching or surpassing its specs(including stuff like battery life,energy consumption, screen dpi, noise, etc). This is not true now and I am not seeing an option in the short term.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#69

Post by spideymans »

gonehome wrote: post #43
cambalache wrote: post #6

OK I love this, but I am pretty sure my chances of getting a mac in the future are zero. From which side should I expect the PC response? Intel? AMD? Microsoft? ARM? Samsung? I think Apple willingly or not has just obliterated the whole consumer pc market.

You might have to bite the bullet and get a mac - I don't see much promise from others in this space. Intel's CEO change may save them, but they're definitely facing an existential threat they've failed to adapt to for years. Amazon will move to ARM on servers and probably some decent design there, but that won't really reach the consumer hardware market (probably - though I suppose they could do something interestin…

I just got my M1 Air. This thing is unbelievably fluid and responsive. It doesn't matter what I do in the background. I can simultaneously run VMs, multiple emulators, compile code, and the UI is always a fluid 60 fps. Apps always open instantly. Webpages always render in a literal blink of an eye. This thing feels like magic. Nothing I do can make this computer skip a beat. Dropped frames are a thing of the past. The user interface of every Intel Mac I've used (yes, even the Mac Pro) feels slow and clunky in comparison.

Oh, and the chassis of this fanless system literally remains cool to the touch while doing all this.

The improvements in raw compute power alone do not account for the incredible fluidity of this thing. macOS on the M1 now feels every bit as snappy and responsive as iPadOS on the iPad. I've never used a PC (or Mac) that has ever felt anywhere near this responsive. I can only chalk that up to software and hardware integration.

Unless Apple's competitors can integrate the software and hardware to the same degree, I don't know how they'll get the same fluidity we see out of the M1. Microsoft really oughta take a look at developing their own PC CPUs, because they're probably the only player in the Windows space suited to integrate software and hardware to such a degree. Indeed, Microsoft is rumoured to be developing their own ARM-based CPUs for the Surface, so it just might happen [0]

[0] https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/18/22189450/microsoft-arm-p...

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#70

Post by noch »

chucky_z wrote: post #58
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #55

Everyone, remember that in 2019 Alyssa was in _High School_. Where do people get this knowledge? It's astounding. She was literally reverse-engineering Mali for Panfrost starting in her Sophomore year.

Where did you get your knowledge? With places like HackerNews along with folks like yourself and myself writing posts about this kind of stuff it becomes trivial to walk down a rabbit hole for anyone of any age. Think back to how much you accomplished when you were younger because you were walking in the footsteps of others. :)

> With [...] folks like yourself and myself writing posts about this kind of stuff

Please could you link to some of the reverse engineering writing by you guys to which you're referring?

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