The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college • Hacker News Board

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#51

Post by s1artibartfast » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 7:57 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #46

s1artibartfast wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP and I dont hold their position, but I wanted to point out that I think your personal attack is undermining productive discussion on this topic. The OP didn't make any claims about their personal feelings about women, you added that connection, accusing them of threatening and casting them as a brooding predator. The points could have been raised by a happily married woman with grandchildren.

I don't believe that they would have been raised by a happily married woman with grandchildren -- or any woman. Oh, you can never say "never", but I think that very, very few women would see themselves in the characterization expressed there. I cited text that, I believe, women would see as red flags. (I'd let women speak for themselves here, but HN is rather a suasage fest, and it shouldn't fall to the few who are h…

I appreciate the follow up. Similarly, I just wanted to let you know in good faith how it came off very combative, going after a view of women that wasn't represented in the post (at least to me). I understand different people have different views, and discussions of mate selection often come off as an incel/misogynist dog whistle. That said, there are real conversations about mate selection, gender dynamics, and loneliness to be had. The hard part is how to do it without digressing into a male/female blame game.

Edit: IF there is a problem with how men view women (and vice versa) we need to talk about why that is: the mothers, fathers, and society that raised them to hold those views.

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#52

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #47

DC1350 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, but I'm gay. I don't need you to tell me about how unloveable I am just because I don't see things the way you do. I have no vested interest in how women think about relationships, but as someone who only dates in a perfectly gender balanced context I think it's fun to think about this stuff. My point is that many men would never be seen as marriage material if it wasn't for utility, and these men are going t…

I apologize. I assumed that if you were speaking about the relationships between men and women it was because you had at least some minimal direct experience about it. I believe that if you talk to actual women, instead of "having fun thinking about stuff", you'll find that you have not characterized how women actually go about seeking partners.

[deleted]

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#53

Post by jfengel » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 8:13 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #51

jfengel wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe that they would have been raised by a happily married woman with grandchildren -- or any woman. Oh, you can never say "never", but I think that very, very few women would see themselves in the characterization expressed there. I cited text that, I believe, women would see as red flags. (I'd let women speak for themselves here, but HN is rather a suasage fest, and it shouldn't fall to the few who are h…

I appreciate the follow up. Similarly, I just wanted to let you know in good faith how it came off very combative, going after a view of women that wasn't represented in the post (at least to me). I understand different people have different views, and discussions of mate selection often come off as an incel/misogynist dog whistle. That said, there are real conversations about mate selection, gender dynamics, and lon…

Thank you. I see how it comes off as combative, and I can't think of a non-combative way to say "I think you've got a very wrong world-view". Perhaps the word "misogynist" right up front is more hostile than it needs to be, but I don't believe it's inaccurate.

And you're absolutely correct to note that mothers, as well as fathers, are involved, as are wives, girlfriends, female friends, and sisters. The problem is deeply pervasive, and women are just as imbued in this culture as men are.

It's why I wanted to call out the red flags in the post. The OP later said that he's gay, and is approaching this as an abstraction. The abstraction is part of the problem: the model he's swimming in is flawed. The problems with it are so glaring that there's no way to point them out without seeming hostile.

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#54

Post by gnusty_gnurc » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

cambalache wrote: post #19

I think there is a big open space for a new kind of institution for higher learning: Shorter, more focused careers, no SJW bullshit, no expensive administrators overhead, partially or completely online, open to a worldwide population. I am aware things like CC and technical schools exists but there is a probably undeserved stigma that they are 'inferior', we need this as a solid,widely respected alternative.

> no expensive administrators overhead

Just this alone would be huge.

Places of higher education should be places where active learning and the exploration of thought is encouraged. Nowadays the education environment is very much conformist - there's one right way to think.

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#55

Post by pardonmesir » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #49

pardonmesir wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think you’re missing the point. If a relatively higher portion of women vs. men have college degrees and thus greater opportunities for stable, salaried positions; and a larger swath of the men are in (increasingly inconsistent, hourly and low-paid) physical labor markets, while a smaller proportion of men also have stable, salaried jobs (and it’s often still going to be the case that of the highest-compensated emp…

Consider it this way: for most of history, men married women with "unstable prospects". They had no job opportunities, not even low-paid ones. Why? Women don't require men to support them. But many still want life partners -- and for most women, they want those life partners to be men. Many would be thrilled with one who stayed home to care for children. Many would be happy with one who created art, not to support th…

again you’re trying to make it a problem inherent in the person who speaks up to point out where they see it differently, and then denigrate the person for propping up a world full of men who see it this way. why?

imagine a man’s post suggesting women should just be happy staying home with the kids or making art. you (or your kind) would probably cross-reference their username, find their employer and try to create grounds for the man’s firing a la James Damore.

this female-driven trend of thinking there’s enough shame to go around to change the behavior of all men everywhere (especially when the greatest female believers of this seem to have the least amount of desire to truly understand what motivates a man) will no doubt be on the list of grievances when the civil war begins.

and for the record, i’m a man who’s doing pretty damn alright in the overall pecking order. i’m in a happy relationship. but yet i see women like you in society everyday with these attitudes — chipping away at men showing an inch of vulnerability or giving an ounce of opportunity, like piranhas in the Amazon.

It won’t last forever. Something’s gonna give.

#DicksOutForHarambe

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#56

Post by s1artibartfast » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 8:52 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #53

s1artibartfast wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the follow up. Similarly, I just wanted to let you know in good faith how it came off very combative, going after a view of women that wasn't represented in the post (at least to me). I understand different people have different views, and discussions of mate selection often come off as an incel/misogynist dog whistle. That said, there are real conversations about mate selection, gender dynamics, and lon…

Thank you. I see how it comes off as combative, and I can't think of a non-combative way to say "I think you've got a very wrong world-view". Perhaps the word "misogynist" right up front is more hostile than it needs to be, but I don't believe it's inaccurate. And you're absolutely correct to note that mothers, as well as fathers, are involved, as are wives, girlfriends, female friends, and sisters. The problem is de…

If you main point was that women (in general) don't use income when considering partners, and it is primarily men (in general) who tie their social relationship value to income, then I think this is fundamental premise for the discussion.

I think there is some truth to both sides. There is a time in the not so distant past where female involvement in the labor pool and earnings was a fraction of what it is now, and men were judged by women and others on their ability to provide for a financially stable family.

Cultural values are evolving, but I personally think this is still on the minds of many, and deeply ingrained in our culture. Female earnings have grown, but the ability to support a family with a single income have diminished. I think that being unemployed or low earning is still an unattractive attribute, but not insurmountable.

Something that the earlier poster failed to cover, that I think could be more significant is the impact of a educational divide on the ability to find common interests and beliefs. The worldview, interests, and exposure to broad ideas that come with education have a profound impact on the ability of individuals to form and maintain relationships.

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#57

Post by rubycon22 » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 8:52 PM UTC

pardonmesir wrote: post #55

jfengel wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider it this way: for most of history, men married women with "unstable prospects". They had no job opportunities, not even low-paid ones. Why? Women don't require men to support them. But many still want life partners -- and for most women, they want those life partners to be men. Many would be thrilled with one who stayed home to care for children. Many would be happy with one who created art, not to support th…

again you’re trying to make it a problem inherent in the person who speaks up to point out where they see it differently, and then denigrate the person for propping up a world full of men who see it this way. why? imagine a man’s post suggesting women should just be happy staying home with the kids or making art. you (or your kind) would probably cross-reference their username, find their employer and try to create g…

extremely blessed post, thanks for saying what many men can't say out loud

#DicksOutForHarambe

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#58

Post by pardonmesir » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 8:53 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #47

DC1350 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, but I'm gay. I don't need you to tell me about how unloveable I am just because I don't see things the way you do. I have no vested interest in how women think about relationships, but as someone who only dates in a perfectly gender balanced context I think it's fun to think about this stuff. My point is that many men would never be seen as marriage material if it wasn't for utility, and these men are going t…

I apologize. I assumed that if you were speaking about the relationships between men and women it was because you had at least some minimal direct experience about it. I believe that if you talk to actual women, instead of "having fun thinking about stuff", you'll find that you have not characterized how women actually go about seeking partners.

you should probably stop attacking people based off the person you think they probably are, and instead address the comments they actually make.

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#59

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 9:05 PM UTC

DC1350 wrote: post #12

With the combination of increasing economic equality between the sexes (young women actually earn more nowadays) and women’s rising expectations from online dating attention, I think it’s clear that we’re heading rapidly towards the normalization of polygamy. There’s just no incentive for women to ever “settle” anymore. I fear that this is going to end in civil unrest when so many young men are economically insecure…

If women aren't going to "settle", why would they settle for being in a polygamous relationship?

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#60

Post by hertzrat » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 10:27 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #23

hertzrat wrote: post #3

> While enrollment in higher education overall fell 2.5 percent in the fall, or by more than 461,000 students compared to the fall of 2019, the decline among men was more than seven times as steep as the decline among women, according to an analysis of figures from the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center. 7x is a big multiple. The article offers some explanations but not enough to get me past the “wow” res…

> The bigger picture is just that the 60/40 split between college educations has flipped to favour women now, and was the opposite a decade ago, but the short term 7x is still crazy The 60/40 split was the opposite in the 1960s, not a decade ago. This was a time where women were widely regarded to disenfranchised.

I must have misread something, thanks for the correction