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The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

hechingerreport.org

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Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#41

Post by inglor_cz »

jfengel wrote: post #39
DC1350 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic equality means women don't need to pair up with men for utility reasons anymore, which means a lot of men will be leftovers since this has historically made up a huge chunk of all marriages. Polygamy or at least polyamory follows since sexual and emotional needs are better met by one man to many women pairings. This is very easy since online dating creates a super efficient market where most women have hundr…

I am genuinely sorry that so many men appear to grow up in a culture that teaches this about women. It's deeply misogynist, and makes the assumption that women must hate men just as much. This simply isn't the case. The vast majority of women genuinely like men. Not as penises to be notched, but as human beings. Many of them want a long-term partner because it makes them feel good. It's nice to have a person they can…

Not the OP and happily married 42 y.o. But the following sentence is worth looking at under current conditions:

> Women are human beings. Seek out a human connection with them

We (as "world") have a problem with dating moving completely online. There isn't much human connection to make on Tinder, it is a very artificial and unnatural environment that places enormous value on photos and little else. All the other dimensions of a human being are secondary there.

My experience from the dating world of the late Analog Age (1996-2006) says that things like sense of humor, kindness, quirkiness contribute enormously to total attraction. These qualities are hard to express online.

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#42

Post by FuckButtons »

DC1350 wrote: post #12

With the combination of increasing economic equality between the sexes (young women actually earn more nowadays) and women’s rising expectations from online dating attention, I think it’s clear that we’re heading rapidly towards the normalization of polygamy. There’s just no incentive for women to ever “settle” anymore. I fear that this is going to end in civil unrest when so many young men are economically insecure…

What an odd take on an article on male college admissions. And what a strange view of women that you think they need economic incentives to persist in a long term relationship.

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#43

Post by jfengel »

inglor_cz wrote: post #41
jfengel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am genuinely sorry that so many men appear to grow up in a culture that teaches this about women. It's deeply misogynist, and makes the assumption that women must hate men just as much. This simply isn't the case. The vast majority of women genuinely like men. Not as penises to be notched, but as human beings. Many of them want a long-term partner because it makes them feel good. It's nice to have a person they can…

Not the OP and happily married 42 y.o. But the following sentence is worth looking at under current conditions: > Women are human beings. Seek out a human connection with them We (as "world") have a problem with dating moving completely online. There isn't much human connection to make on Tinder, it is a very artificial and unnatural environment that places enormous value on photos and little else. All the other dime…

I had a lot of dating success both on Tinder and pre-Tinder. My experiences are of course anecdotal, but I think worth considering.

Tinder's focus on photos is somewhat misleading. A picture is, famously, worth a thousand words. If you treat Tinder as a simple HotOrNot game, you will have problems. But a photo contains a lot of information about a person: what their interests are, what's important to them, even whether they're conscientious enough to seek out a good picture. When you put up a picture of yourself at your hobby, or traveling, or in front of your bookshelf, you say a lot.

My heuristic was this: I examined each photo that caught my eye with a thought about something I could say to them. "Hey, I also visited City X!" "What a great fish tank. What do you raise?" Even "That dress is amazing" is a truthful statement about something that makes me interested in them. If I didn't have anything to say to them based on their photo -- maybe they'd be interesting In Real Life anyway, but at the very least I know that they're not very good at thinking about how they present themselves.

I do wish Tinder had better support for what text it does have. I'm a person of words, and would like to know that they have at least something to say. It's not presented by default and I don't think they push people hard enough to fill something out.

Still... I started several multi-year relationships on Tinder (and Bumble). Humor and kindness are still found there; they start in the chat and quickly move into the real world. (Being a person of words I really liked long involved chats before we met, but apparently a lot of women have experienced being strung along, and there's a push to meet up earlier rather than later. That tends to favor cities, where a lot of people are close by. The worst you lose is the time for a short coffee date.)

There are certainly plenty of difficulties, but I don't think the photo focus is as bad as you'd expect. I found it no more unnatural than other ways of meeting people, which are also often very visual since that's your first impression.

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#44

Post by s1artibartfast »

jfengel wrote: post #39
DC1350 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic equality means women don't need to pair up with men for utility reasons anymore, which means a lot of men will be leftovers since this has historically made up a huge chunk of all marriages. Polygamy or at least polyamory follows since sexual and emotional needs are better met by one man to many women pairings. This is very easy since online dating creates a super efficient market where most women have hundr…

I am genuinely sorry that so many men appear to grow up in a culture that teaches this about women. It's deeply misogynist, and makes the assumption that women must hate men just as much. This simply isn't the case. The vast majority of women genuinely like men. Not as penises to be notched, but as human beings. Many of them want a long-term partner because it makes them feel good. It's nice to have a person they can…

Not OP and I dont hold their position, but I wanted to point out that I think your personal attack is undermining productive discussion on this topic.

The OP didn't make any claims about their personal feelings about women, you added that connection, accusing them of threatening and casting them as a brooding predator.

The points could have been raised by a happily married woman with grandchildren.

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#45

Post by DC1350 »

jfengel wrote: post #39
DC1350 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic equality means women don't need to pair up with men for utility reasons anymore, which means a lot of men will be leftovers since this has historically made up a huge chunk of all marriages. Polygamy or at least polyamory follows since sexual and emotional needs are better met by one man to many women pairings. This is very easy since online dating creates a super efficient market where most women have hundr…

I am genuinely sorry that so many men appear to grow up in a culture that teaches this about women. It's deeply misogynist, and makes the assumption that women must hate men just as much. This simply isn't the case. The vast majority of women genuinely like men. Not as penises to be notched, but as human beings. Many of them want a long-term partner because it makes them feel good. It's nice to have a person they can…

Thanks, but I'm gay. I don't need you to tell me about how unloveable I am just because I don't see things the way you do. I have no vested interest in how women think about relationships, but as someone who only dates in a perfectly gender balanced context I think it's fun to think about this stuff.

My point is that many men would never be seen as marriage material if it wasn't for utility, and these men are going to be left behind.

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#46

Post by jfengel »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #44
jfengel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am genuinely sorry that so many men appear to grow up in a culture that teaches this about women. It's deeply misogynist, and makes the assumption that women must hate men just as much. This simply isn't the case. The vast majority of women genuinely like men. Not as penises to be notched, but as human beings. Many of them want a long-term partner because it makes them feel good. It's nice to have a person they can…

Not OP and I dont hold their position, but I wanted to point out that I think your personal attack is undermining productive discussion on this topic. The OP didn't make any claims about their personal feelings about women, you added that connection, accusing them of threatening and casting them as a brooding predator. The points could have been raised by a happily married woman with grandchildren.

I don't believe that they would have been raised by a happily married woman with grandchildren -- or any woman. Oh, you can never say "never", but I think that very, very few women would see themselves in the characterization expressed there.

I cited text that, I believe, women would see as red flags. (I'd let women speak for themselves here, but HN is rather a suasage fest, and it shouldn't fall to the few who are here to do all of the work. If they disagree with me we should certainly discuss that.) Regardless of who the OP actually is in real life, that's the way they presented themselves, and I think it's important to HN readers to see how that is interpreted.

I cannot think of any more productive way to show that. I tried to be as polite and specific as I could while saying what I believe a woman would say, if she felt safe enough to do so. (I reiterate, I wouldn't if I thought it likely that a woman would, in this forum. I'm a secondhand substitute.)

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#47

Post by jfengel »

DC1350 wrote: post #45
jfengel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am genuinely sorry that so many men appear to grow up in a culture that teaches this about women. It's deeply misogynist, and makes the assumption that women must hate men just as much. This simply isn't the case. The vast majority of women genuinely like men. Not as penises to be notched, but as human beings. Many of them want a long-term partner because it makes them feel good. It's nice to have a person they can…

Thanks, but I'm gay. I don't need you to tell me about how unloveable I am just because I don't see things the way you do. I have no vested interest in how women think about relationships, but as someone who only dates in a perfectly gender balanced context I think it's fun to think about this stuff. My point is that many men would never be seen as marriage material if it wasn't for utility, and these men are going t…

I apologize. I assumed that if you were speaking about the relationships between men and women it was because you had at least some minimal direct experience about it.

I believe that if you talk to actual women, instead of "having fun thinking about stuff", you'll find that you have not characterized how women actually go about seeking partners.

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#48

Post by pardonmesir »

jfengel wrote: post #39
DC1350 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic equality means women don't need to pair up with men for utility reasons anymore, which means a lot of men will be leftovers since this has historically made up a huge chunk of all marriages. Polygamy or at least polyamory follows since sexual and emotional needs are better met by one man to many women pairings. This is very easy since online dating creates a super efficient market where most women have hundr…

I am genuinely sorry that so many men appear to grow up in a culture that teaches this about women. It's deeply misogynist, and makes the assumption that women must hate men just as much. This simply isn't the case. The vast majority of women genuinely like men. Not as penises to be notched, but as human beings. Many of them want a long-term partner because it makes them feel good. It's nice to have a person they can…

i think you’re missing the point. If a relatively higher portion of women vs. men have college degrees and thus greater opportunities for stable, salaried positions; and a larger swath of the men are in (increasingly inconsistent, hourly and low-paid) physical labor markets, while a smaller proportion of men also have stable, salaried jobs (and it’s often still going to be the case that of the highest-compensated employees, a larger portion of them are male): most women aren’t going to want to hitch themselves long-term to someone with unstable prospects. This is where the matching problem comes in, and no, it’s not unreasonable to realize (and it doesn’t necessarily imply a flawed personality in the person who recognizes it enough to write it) that you’re going to have a lot of men with no ability to build a life (ie a wife and a family). And with the increasingly connected-world/social media, they’ll be keenly aware of how a handful of other men have it better/easier. Not crazy to think that will lead to larger societal problems.

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#49

Post by jfengel »

pardonmesir wrote: post #48
jfengel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am genuinely sorry that so many men appear to grow up in a culture that teaches this about women. It's deeply misogynist, and makes the assumption that women must hate men just as much. This simply isn't the case. The vast majority of women genuinely like men. Not as penises to be notched, but as human beings. Many of them want a long-term partner because it makes them feel good. It's nice to have a person they can…

i think you’re missing the point. If a relatively higher portion of women vs. men have college degrees and thus greater opportunities for stable, salaried positions; and a larger swath of the men are in (increasingly inconsistent, hourly and low-paid) physical labor markets, while a smaller proportion of men also have stable, salaried jobs (and it’s often still going to be the case that of the highest-compensated emp…

Consider it this way: for most of history, men married women with "unstable prospects". They had no job opportunities, not even low-paid ones. Why?

Women don't require men to support them. But many still want life partners -- and for most women, they want those life partners to be men. Many would be thrilled with one who stayed home to care for children. Many would be happy with one who created art, not to support them but because it made for a rich life. Many women, all through history, have made satisfying lives while just scraping by.

Don't think of your dating life as a search for the best woman who will have you at your salary. Search out somebody who is kind, compassionate, funny, or whatever else it is that will make you smile when you come home, or when she comes home to you. You'll need money, and the money you each make is precisely the same shade of green, neither pink nor blue. If you make enough together to get by, you can lead a perfectly happy life.

If some men are unable to adapt to that fact of life, that is surely a problem with those men, not with women. Fixing it starts with not presenting modernity as a conspiracy against them.

Re: The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

#50

Post by LatteLazy »

etempleton wrote: post #17
LatteLazy wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until employers think that way, the only people getting hired don't think that way. Until the people getting hired think that way, employers won't think that way.

Hiring is hard. Graduating from college is a clear indicator that someone was able to at least commit and follow through with something and should have at minimal basic knowledge in a given area.

Exactly. You pretty much know what you get when you hire a grad. And if it doesn't work out, you can understandably act surprised and say "I know, and he was from MIT too! If you break the mold and it works no one cares. If you break the mold and hire some guy without a degree, and it does wrong, you built your own gallows!

Freakonomics referred to the Sheepskin effect: 80% of the benefits of getting a degree come from the last semester. Someone with 90% of a degree is worth only 20% more of the gain someone with that last 10% is.

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