Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook • Hacker News Board

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#901

Post by klmadfejno » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 4:39 PM UTC

trident5000 wrote: post #171

klmadfejno wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Golly it's just so hard to know who to trust. The crowds protesting racial injustice and police brutality? Or the literal, self identifying nazis, white supremacists, and cultish conspiracy theorists trying to kill political leaders. Alas our moral non cognizance in a post modern perspective. edit: to the below, really, no. There's no hyperbole. If your group features nazis, and your group is not making every effort…

Another issue is how any individual frames either side and bases good and bad off of that, often using hyperbole, inaccuracies, wide brushes of their opposing views. Where are all these “nazis” you say that word a lot. “My group” I didnt know I was in a group. You certainly seem to assume a lot and form knee jerk conclusions. Actually proving my point quite well.

> Where are all these “nazis” you say that word a lot.

How about this guy, self identifying neo nazi, who live streamed himself going into the capitol?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...

I use "your" in the general sense. I don't know who you are.

But here's the thing, you can be a conservative and not align with the opinions of nazis. But if you look at the nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups attacking the capitol; and say "I think they're working for a good cause", I'm going to make some assumptions.

If you stop and find yourself arguing similar talking points as nazi groups... I don't know what you expect to happen. This isn't hyperbole. These are literal nazi groups. We are so far removed from what should be a societally tolerable difference of opinion. It's not "conservatism" at play here.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#902

Post by notacoward » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

fifthace wrote: post #262

mikem170 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My two cents: Facebook has an algorithm they use to decide what posts are presented to a user. They should therefore loose their section 230 common carrier status. They are the ones deciding to put toxic and divisive information in front of users to drive engagement, instead of simply sharing posts in chronological order and letting users control all the filtering.

You've misunderstood Section 230 : https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200531/23325444617/hello...

That's not what section 230 says today, but there's a very interesting debate to be had about what its inevitable replacement should say tomorrow. Ranking posts according to some unexplainable algorithm which includes things like keyword extraction, often "selfishly" to favor engagement, has proven to be far from benign. I think it's quite reasonable to say that as a platform exerts more of this control it should also assume more responsibility. If you're not prepared to take on that responsibility, stick to strict chronological order and/or user defined priorities.

I don't particularly like it when Facebook (for example) buries content from my actual friends and family beneath posts that it thinks might be more engaging. They're usually wrong, BTW; the moment I recognize it as an algorithmic promotion I scroll right past as quick as I can. They certainly shouldn't be showing me stuff from pages and groups I never expressed an interest in. If I want to find new sources I'll ask. If they do those things, they are acting as editors and publishers, and should be treated as such. There are still problems to be solved around groups people have already joined and ads and privacy, but if they'd at least stop pulling every user toward more extreme content - effectively recruiting for the worst of the worst - that would be positive.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#903

Post by gwright » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #894

gwright wrote: post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is "equating"? They are different but both bad. No reason to excuse either of them in any way. No need to decide which one is worth prosecuting and which one isn't.

> Who is "equating"? You are, in your post upthread.

Having things in common is not the same thing as "equating"

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#904

Post by eganist » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

nec4b wrote: post #883

eganist wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Firstly, nobody was terrorized. I can count six DC-area thousand+ employee firms that provided grief counseling in response. And as a reminder, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism - even if a subset of people implemented violence with political ends in mind (breaking in, beating innocent people, attempting to take hostages, all in the name of overturning a legitimate election), at the very least, that subset me…

The Capitol was successfully bombed in 1983 by a left wing terrorist group.

The full list of incidents is here: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-capitol-hist...

But while all of those are incidents, attacks, etc., I think the distinction (which I failed to highlight) is that 1814 and 2021 involved a complete overrun of the building rather than a localized incident or intrusion. Doesn't make much of a practical difference in the end, though.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#905

Post by ryathal » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #399

whoknew1122 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far-right terrorism in the US has never really been taken seriously. No one took them seriously. Until the Capitol was attacked. The Feds are starting to roll up high ranking militia members, so hopefully they learned their lesson this time.

another thing that immediately came to mind after the capitol rioting was the standoff with Cliven Bundy and an article I saw a few years ago[1]. I even remembered that at the time there were people on Fox who were downplaying this as some sort of patriotic resistance against the government. Imagine if someone started a caliphate on US territory, I'm sure we'd be hearing the same kind of arguments /s "Cliven Bundy an…

The Bundy thing was 100% government needlessly escalating a matter, that should have been some lawyers negotiating a reasonable fees and promises to not intentionally graze on federal land. If that failed they simply could have arrested him driving in to town or some equally mundane action.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#906

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #878

jacquesm wrote: post #871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's bunk because the military didn't play ball, not because it wasn't tried. What's mostly bunk here is that you think that this is behind you and I am not willing to accept that until we have seen one, and preferably two transfers of power without mishap, preferably in both directions.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You're claiming the sitting President tried to mobilize the military to prevent a transfer of power. Do you have any evidence of that? Claiming there was fraud in the past election, that the election was stolen, or that the results should not have been certified is not mobilizing the military. It's not even illegal, it's part of the constitutional process. Hell, so…

Ok.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#907

Post by loeg » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 5:31 PM UTC

loveistheanswer wrote: post #176

Pfhreak wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Antifa and BLM burned and looted for months This sentence fragment appears deliberately vague and it assumes the conclusion. Compare, for example, "The Capitol Attack" vs "Right Wing Violence in America". One references a specific event with specific actors, the other is a vague non-specific description of a phenomena that may or may not exist. I'd encourage you to be more specific -- which instances of fires and l…

What about CHAZ/CHOP? -Armed protestors took over government buildings and city blocks -Promoted/condoned/excused by government officials -Lots of violence and murder

Seattle protesters were unarmed and getting tear gassed by SPD for a solid month before SPD decided to just leave the East Precinct on their own. "Armed protectors took over gov. buildings and city blocks" is just completely false. After SPD left, some people put up some signs and blockades and that's about it.

SPD is an arm of executive branch of the municipal government. Again, SPD was beating and gassing protesters (and the entire neighborhood — gas spreads) for a solid month. That is the city's clear policy on protests against police brutality — bash the protesters until they stop protesting. Outside of maybe Sawant, who is a weirdo, no city official promoted, condoned, or "excused" SPD leaving the east precinct.

Lots of violence and murder: your implication is that the handful of shootings in cap hill while SPD were out of the precinct were caused by CHOP/CHAZ, but correlation isn't causation. (And N is also pretty small.) Outside of the handful of shootings, there was only increased violence in Cap hill after the cops left if you don't count violence by cops.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#908

Post by j_walter » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

esyir wrote: post #690

Pfhreak wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A small number of protestors made it over some waist high barricades and nearly made it to the white house lawn. They were arrested. Trump himself said he wasn't whisked to a bunker. If you don't see a categorical difference between the two events, I'd recommend checking your biases.

Sounds pretty similar to me. Both sides involved an attempted violent incursion into a core zone of the government. On bias checks, I'd probably just ask you to do the same first. Hell, I'm not even American. One was met with celebration, I recall reddit threads on the top of all celebrating trumps weakness retreating to the bunker. Conversely, looking at msm rw response, they're not too happy with the capitol riots,…

No incident of rioting is acceptable...celebrating any of them is ridiculous. It does seem to be a double standard in allowing it for months in 2020 only to condemn it when the same tactics are used on 1/6. Violence and lawlessness isn't acceptable...unless you claim your voices are being ignored and your rights trampled upon...that was the message we have seen since May of last year.

Take political sides out of the equation...and none of the events like this that have transpired in the last year are acceptable.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#909

Post by loeg » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

DaniloDias wrote: post #688

cheeze wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most folks that I know in Seattle didn't think that CHOP/CHAZ was a good thing, and one of their leaders Raz Simone was heavily criticized for being... well, dumb to put it lightly. It's okay to criticize both things here. CHOP/CHAZ was clearly wrong, as is throwing a molotov at a police officer. No question about that. The capitol was wrong as well.

If CHAZ was so clearly wrong, then why was the democratic city council of Seattle so reluctant to do something about it for so long? We want to pretend that this is all Trump’s fault- but we’re unable to recognize that it’s Trump who is a symptom of a systemic failure of logic and reason.

> If CHAZ was so clearly wrong, then why was the democratic city council of Seattle so reluctant to do something about it for so long?

It wasn't "clearly" wrong initially; just weird and novel. It was a nice break from SPD's regular violence against protesters.

Why didn't the city's electeds attempt to move back in sooner? Because something about gassing their own citizens was politically unpopular for some reason. Note that this was summer, most Seattlites don't have air conditioning, and teargas spreads in the air. People I knew on Cap hill were coughing despite having all their windows closed (and sweltering).

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#910

Post by loeg » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 5:38 PM UTC

_-david-_ wrote: post #251

dylan-m wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- The BLM movement is, while poorly framed and easily co-opted by other people, about genuine problems with policing in the United States. Problems that are backed up with verifiable facts rather than scummy used car salesmen and the Inventor of Email™. - The BLM movement, while the source of many large large scale protests (several of which turned into riots and outstayed their welcome) never, at any point, even pre…

A couple cops were killed by blm rioters. Sure they weren't capital police but they were still police. ACAB was all over Facebook and Twitter which at a minimum raised the temperature and hatred towards cops.

> A couple cops were killed by blm rioters.

Citation?