HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know • Hacker News Board

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#391

Post by rocqua » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 3:36 PM UTC

wegs wrote: post #366

plif wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to see this at the top. This is a very cynical take that applies wildly general negative sentiment and statements to a huge group of people. It's not just about workplace dynamics. I couldn't keep reading after the ~5th paragraph where the (not so subtle) point is: how can _these people_ live with themselves? I'll copy the relevant paragraph below: > Expert gaslighters, they are. What really makes me wonder is h…

Cultures have different professional cultures. * Executive ethics focus on maximizing shareholder value, while individual incentives, on personal returns. If I can pollute a lake for an extra buck to my stock price, I'm expected to do this. * HR ethics focus on protecting the company. If they can lie to you as an employee to minimize legal risk, that's what's gonna happen. * Legal ethics focusing on protecting your c…

> A little cross-cultural training goes a long ways to avoid that. I'm sorry you don't like the tone, but I viewed this as a fair guide for programmers managing corporate settings running into those barriers. T > his article appears to do a fine job explaining HR's role to people coming from e.g. CS undergrad degrees which will prevent them from getting hurt. It's no better or worse than a guide for e.g. American women as to what to expect if they marry someone from Saudi culture.

I agree that cross cultural training is important, and indeed what is needed here. But I don't think this article is framed properly to be seen as cross cultural training. Instead this article portrays one culture only as seen from the other. It lacks the opposite view, failing to consider how the management culture might perceive the coders. The article neither suggests that the actions by management might be a reasonable response from their culture, nor does it suggest ways to better interact.

> If you don't show a certain modesty and humility in gift-receiving in China, you'll be an outcast. If you don't show a certain opulence and over-the-top gratitude in some parts of the Middle East and show the same, you'll be an outcast just as much.

In the context of this analogy, this article would be much like a Chinese rant on "how all Middle Easteners are Jerks for displaying their opulence, and therefore cannot be trusted". That is not an article that helps in cross-cultural training.

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#392

Post by rocqua » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

kowlo wrote: post #335

rocqua wrote: post #320

I really don't enjoy the tone here. The derision with which it speaks about managers, like they are either evil or incompetent, is unfair in my experience. (my) Managers are just people. They have a task, they do their best to get that task done. Sometimes they decisions that seem bad to me. Often that is because I misunderstand their goals. Sometimes, it is because I know something they don't, and something they cou…

I enjoy the tone because it seems genuine. As with almost everything, I view it as their opinion, not fact. It might not apply to you or many others, but their experience likely explains their perspective.

I came in to my current (first) job with this kind of cynicism. Had I held on to that I would be a lot worse off right now. I hope to prevent others from making that mistake.

Especially if management is slightly worse than at my current job. It would be easy but wrong to write them of as incompetent based on articles like this. This would be quite costly for anyone making that mistake.

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#393

Post by yowlingcat » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #318

_nrv9 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always terrified of losing my job. It's a fear I've had even though I've been a top performer the entire five years I've been professionally working. Maybe it's because I grew up poor or because I think things are too good in tech and about to crash any day. My antidote? $100k in liquidity. Preferably not invested in the NASDAQ. If tech crashes, you can take your liquid $100k and move to Thailand, Spain, Portuga…

> $100k in liquidity. That of course puts you into the 1% of people in terms of liquidity. Quite a lot of people are a long way below that: https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2019-economic-we... Retirement saving are interesting because for a whole bunch of public policy reasons most people have illiquid retirement savings. > move to Thailand, Spain, Portugal, Turkey Check your visa requirements: can you rea…

> Check your visa requirements: can you really move there without a job?

If you're willing to live a slightly rootless "digital nomad" life, you can ping pong across several countries spending 3-6 months in each back and forth to remain on a visitor visa indefinitely. Not ideal, of course, but you can do this until you get on your feet in a more permanent manner IE full-time remote work.

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#394

Post by rocqua » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

rkachowski wrote: post #355

rocqua wrote: post #320

I really don't enjoy the tone here. The derision with which it speaks about managers, like they are either evil or incompetent, is unfair in my experience. (my) Managers are just people. They have a task, they do their best to get that task done. Sometimes they decisions that seem bad to me. Often that is because I misunderstand their goals. Sometimes, it is because I know something they don't, and something they cou…

The article ends with "reasonable exchanges are only possible with reasonable people". If you have an unreasonable manager or are dependent upon unreasonable people, there is no amount of meditation upon unaligned goals or rationalisation that will change the situation. Expecting everyone to act rationally in the best interests of a shared goal is an exercise in frustration and a fast track to burnout.

I think the article casts to many people ("All managers") as unreasonable. That seems significantly wrong to me, and feels like it would be counter productive.

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#395

Post by znpy » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

akmarinov wrote: post #269

_nrv9 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always terrified of losing my job. It's a fear I've had even though I've been a top performer the entire five years I've been professionally working. Maybe it's because I grew up poor or because I think things are too good in tech and about to crash any day. My antidote? $100k in liquidity. Preferably not invested in the NASDAQ. If tech crashes, you can take your liquid $100k and move to Thailand, Spain, Portuga…

Not sure about Thailand and it really depends on your lifestyle, but 100k will get you through 2-3 years at most in the other countries, if you live in an urban setting, not really pinching pennies.

> 2-3 years at most

2-3 years might be enough time to study something (something else maybe?) and look for another job or possibly re-invent yourself into another field.

still better than nothing at all btw!

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#396

Post by lifeisstillgood » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

NotPavlovsDog wrote: post #341

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of those things are hard to achieve - we would all, I think, like to hear more about how.

I have been running an experiment for the last year, and will also be interviewing professional developers, outside of my circles, as part of my research. Management and engineering cultures have been described as orthogonal, and the standard approach may be characterized as getting engineering to conform to management values. Leadership has to be realist enough to understand that a) tech talent has other options b)…

Do you have a mailing list? :-) SIgn me up and keep me updated please :-)

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#397

Post by np- » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

Uberphallus wrote: post #324

baby wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can tell you that you can live in the center of a French city for like 10 years on that money. You won’t have a crazy lifestyle but you can live in the center and do groceries and the occasional restaurants and drinks for that money. Most people would take like 5 years to make that much AT LEAST.

> I can tell you that you can live in the center of a French city for like 10 years on that money. What city, though? I live in a small city (coast, but still), and the absolute crappiest studio will chomp 500€/mo out of your wallet, which roughly translates to over $70k. Anything decent goes easily over $100k and that's rent alone.

Not OP, but I suppose the implication is that you would continue to do some sort of work, even if just random jobs to supplement your income. It would probably be hard to go a decade without earning a single penny (of course I'm assuming this is all happening well before traditional retirement age).

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#398

Post by NotPavlovsDog » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #396

NotPavlovsDog wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been running an experiment for the last year, and will also be interviewing professional developers, outside of my circles, as part of my research. Management and engineering cultures have been described as orthogonal, and the standard approach may be characterized as getting engineering to conform to management values. Leadership has to be realist enough to understand that a) tech talent has other options b)…

Do you have a mailing list? :-) SIgn me up and keep me updated please :-)

I'll ping your comment once I set something up, thanks for your interest. The problem for me right now is making sure the people I interview are safe from corporate repercussion, due to their participation.

Voicing ethical concerns about management is a firing offense for many, it seems.So I have to make sure the blog / mailing list is set up so that the website, list, etc doesn't expose people.

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#399

Post by me_me_me » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

beckler wrote: post #390

> "One exception to this that I've found is when someone already has plans for getting rid of someone and just needs the "ammo". At that point, they will quickly become your "friend" in order to get all of the dirt on that person, and then once the deed is done, it'll be like you never existed to them." This one hits hard. I was just a developer at the time, but I had a co-founder get really chummy with me, and I eve…

I can sympathize, when I was young and naive I was also befriended by my manager who used our conversations about project and about one of my coworkers to get rid of him. He was a bit erratic but he was honest and good programmer. He must have been a 'handful' to a manager so he got rid of him.

I realized what happened years after and to this day I feel shitty that I took part in it.

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#400

Post by cybert00th » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

Having recently come within a hairs breadth of losing my job due to HR overreach; I can confirm that, certainly in the current climate, Rachel is right.