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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

tomcritchlow.com

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Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#211

Post by gjvc »

_y5hn wrote: post #29
thrashh wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why stop there? Let’s bundle something like Excel or Powerpoint, or Photoshop or Final Cut. If we’re deciding to bundle additional software with a browser, why would a programming environment (chosen based on someone’s favorite language) be top priority?

They already put entire desktop environments in some two decades ago. It never took off.

With good reasons at the time -- browsers were slow and heavy. Now we have (among others) the V8 Javascript engine and insanely fast client computers (all of any recent desktop, laptop, and mobile device)

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#212

Post by user-the-name »

kichimi wrote: post #121
user-the-name wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? You are allowed to point out failings without having a perfect solution at hand.

He's asking you to back up your assertations. If all you have is an easily produced vague thought then it can be dismissed just as easily.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25789651

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#213

Post by aspyct »

zimpenfish wrote: post #199
aspyct wrote: post #59

I feel like the author is confused between server-side and client-side development, and proceeds to say that programming is hard. He even goes on to quote himself (sigh) as a proof of what he proposes. Look, maybe someone just explained it badly to you, and you should look it up for yourself. However, if the command line looks scary to you... wait until you read bad documentation :) My point is: yes, programming is a…

> just like it's hard to become a good musician if you shy away from sheet music A bunch of world famous artists would disagree with you there. https://www.themusicstudio.ca/blog/2017/11/909/

Didn't say it's impossible. I know great developers who don't like the command line.

Dude, it's just a metaphor.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#214

Post by rowanG077 »

user-the-name wrote: post #179
collyw wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure how true this is. There have been numerous attempts at visual programming and they have generally turned out to be crap. Because syntax is actually a relativity small part of the problem.

It has nothing to do with visual programming. Which, by the way, is in massive, wide-scale use today. Game engines tend to use it, audio processing software uses it, and scientific control software also use them. But no, what I am talking about is all the tooling around the programming, which in turn relies on the massively archaic Unix command line.

Visual programming can work in specific domains. But I've never seen it used in large general purpose systems.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#215

Post by toomanybeersies »

PurpleFoxy wrote: post #201
user-the-name wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standard unix shells. They contain a massive amount of complexity and obfuscation that only exists because that's how it was always done and nobody dares change it any longer.

Agreed. There are so many annoyances like how you can’t use the standard shortcuts to copy and paste or how pasting text can insert a newline and run the command. If we rebuilt the command line today it would be massively better

Interestingly enough these are both solved problems when using iTerm on macOS.

Ctrl+C sends SIGINT, while CMD+C copies text, and running commands when a newline is pasted can be disabled.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#216

Post by TeMPOraL »

dagw wrote: post #119
aspyct wrote: post #59

I feel like the author is confused between server-side and client-side development, and proceeds to say that programming is hard. He even goes on to quote himself (sigh) as a proof of what he proposes. Look, maybe someone just explained it badly to you, and you should look it up for yourself. However, if the command line looks scary to you... wait until you read bad documentation :) My point is: yes, programming is a…

There's still plenty of awesome things you can do in IT without ever touching code I spend a lot of my day working in a 'no code' visual programming environment and the difference between the solutions created by the people who know how to program and those who don't know how to program is massive. Those who don't know how to program tend to fail at coming up with non-trivial solutions and are not really able to debu…

Yup. That's because programming isn't just learning the vernacular. It's, first and foremost, learning to express concepts in a structured, super-precise way; learning to evolve systems in your head step by step, according to a set of arbitrary rules; learning the nature of computation.

Familiarity with this type of thinking is visible not just in computer-related endeavors, but often in everyday life matters as well.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#217

Post by PeterisP »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #198
user-the-name wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standard unix shells. They contain a massive amount of complexity and obfuscation that only exists because that's how it was always done and nobody dares change it any longer.

Like what? Please be specific or we can't have a meaningful discussion. I use Bash a fair amount and I don't consider it overly complicated as a shell. There are some rough edges in Unix, like handling spaces in directories, and I'm no fan of Bash as a scripting language, but I wouldn't say the basic model of the Unix command-line interface is overly complicated.

One aspect of standard command line experience is that the various standard unix tools have different, incompatible "interfaces" (different switches for the same things, requiring multiple different memorizations) - the experience could be "unified" to a common standard and it would be better and simpler, without removing any actual functionality, but they can't be because that would break backwards compatibility and what people remember.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#218

Post by swiftcoder »

jorams wrote: post #205
swiftcoder wrote: post #142

A lot of dunking of the "git gud" variety going on here, but the author has a solid point. Requiring a novice to learn arcana of a 30 year old Unix system before they can learn to program is purely extraneous. We could package programming languages up with GUI installers that set everything up correctly and let you get right to the code - and in fact, we used to. If you install IntelliJ, you'll have a fully-working J…

> Requiring a novice to learn arcana of a 30 year old Unix system before they can learn to program is purely extraneous. The thing is, that's the system they are using. Node.js is a programming runtime for that system. Node.js has a GUI installer that sets everything up correctly, it's just not an IDE. Jetbrains has an IDE, WebStorm, that probably works just as well as the Java one. It can automatically download Node…

Sure, but when I visit nodejs.org there is a very prominent "Download" button, and no mention at all that I might have an easier time with WebStorm (or another such fully-integrated development package). No links to introductory materials either, I might add.

Those would be fairly trivial changes to the website landing page, but they could drastically reduce the steepness of the on-ramp.

By contrast, if I visit python.org, there is a clear funnel leading me to alternative development environments, beginner tutorials, etc.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#219

Post by oefrha »

antisol wrote: post #206
oefrha wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vitriol, if any, comes from eventually having to use products created by programmers without a shred of curiosity, expect everything handed to them, and do the bare minimum to create a semblance of working products. How many times have you used a website/app and it works so bad that you want to hit the programmer who wrote it? Frankly, “why do I need to figure out what PATH means” is shockingly non-curious even a…

It could also come from having spent thousands of hours dealing with issues created by this type of person. There's nothing wrong with being new to coding, not knowing things, and making mistakes - it's how we learn - but when you start your article with list of things that you couldn't be bothered to do a web search for, proudly proclaiming your ignorance and unwillingness to learn and expecting me to do your thinki…

Yes, there’s substantial overlap between this group and the group who create “does not work (EOM)” issues I expressed immense frustration over the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25758884

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#220

Post by rowanG077 »

0-_-0 wrote: post #124
thrashh wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why stop there? Let’s bundle something like Excel or Powerpoint, or Photoshop or Final Cut. If we’re deciding to bundle additional software with a browser, why would a programming environment (chosen based on someone’s favorite language) be top priority?

Because installing Excel is simple already

Having installed excel and node countless times I can safely say excel is harder to install.
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