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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

tomcritchlow.com

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Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#201

Post by PurpleFoxy »

user-the-name wrote: post #176
kichimi wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which one? Please explain how it's pointless. What is esoteric about typing which program you want to run?

Standard unix shells. They contain a massive amount of complexity and obfuscation that only exists because that's how it was always done and nobody dares change it any longer.

Agreed. There are so many annoyances like how you can’t use the standard shortcuts to copy and paste or how pasting text can insert a newline and run the command.

If we rebuilt the command line today it would be massively better

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#202

Post by TeMPOraL »

user-the-name wrote: post #191
kichimi wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree completely, and I'm starting to see now that you do not see the command line as programming, which is a fundamental flaw in how you're approaching your argument. The command line _IS_ a programming language. If you do not want to learn it then you do not want to learn programming.

The command line is 100% superfluous. You can create and distribute a world-class iOS app without having to touch a command line even once. It is just not necessary. Nothing gets easier if you do. Because iOS has actual well-designed modern tooling.

Developing iOS apps isn't the be-all, end-all of programming. iOS itself is a consumption platform. It's garbage if you want to actually do anything (and so is Android), because the input bandwidth is severely limited. You don't need a command line on your phone, because there's hardly much you can do with it anyway.

But sit in front of a device with a keyboard - one that's meant for creative use - and suddenly, the command line shines as a force multiplier.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#203

Post by dagw »

kichimi wrote: post #188
0-_-0 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In one statement you just revealed your age and experience level. What are you assuming about my experience level? I thought it was perfectly clear that the argument isn't "there should be no command line" but that knowledge of the command like should't be necessary for beginners. Just like e.g. knowing assebler shouldn't be (and isn't) neccessary for programming. That's why I put the parenthesized statement above,…

I disagree completely, and I'm starting to see now that you do not see the command line as programming, which is a fundamental flaw in how you're approaching your argument. The command line _IS_ a programming language. If you do not want to learn it then you do not want to learn programming.

If you do not want to learn it then you do not want to learn programming.

That is simply not true. I have plenty of colleagues that do everything in Visual Studio and never touch the command line and they produce solution to hard problems that are absolutely useful and well written.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#204

Post by childintime »

viceroyalbean wrote: post #148
user-the-name wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The command line" is not pointless. The current popular implementation of a command line, is, however, pointlessly complicated and esoteric for no real gain. It could be improved massively.

What do you mean by "current popular implementation of a command line"? The shell, common tools (e.g ls, cat, grep), command line interfaces for other programs?

yes, that should have been obvious. if you ever used them, you know they do not scale beyond the basics.

just try to imagine the language as the OS. if it were good enough, there would be no need to have different languages, and one would not have the horrible level of fragmentation and harmful shared state that characterizes today's dev environment. most people have become blind to this fact.

then there is the problem of selection bias: the majority of developers in this business have tolerated an insane level of abuse. most are proud of their abilities, even if they can be characterized as "they know how to wade through layers upon layers of shit". it is often hard to have a discussion about this, because they take this as personal criticism.

the situation we live can be described as a paradox: the Unix culture is at the same time both a pinnacle of OS design (from days gone by) and a steaming pile of shit with so many bad practices abound it is no use highlighting one (with the command-line just being a visible part).

just pointing out the obvious.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#205

Post by jorams »

swiftcoder wrote: post #142

A lot of dunking of the "git gud" variety going on here, but the author has a solid point. Requiring a novice to learn arcana of a 30 year old Unix system before they can learn to program is purely extraneous. We could package programming languages up with GUI installers that set everything up correctly and let you get right to the code - and in fact, we used to. If you install IntelliJ, you'll have a fully-working J…

> Requiring a novice to learn arcana of a 30 year old Unix system before they can learn to program is purely extraneous.

The thing is, that's the system they are using. Node.js is a programming runtime for that system. Node.js has a GUI installer that sets everything up correctly, it's just not an IDE.

Jetbrains has an IDE, WebStorm, that probably works just as well as the Java one. It can automatically download Node.js for you, so the same experience as for Java is available there as well.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#206

Post by antisol »

oefrha wrote: post #74
DangitBobby wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's with the vitriol? The person who wrote this is active in the current thread.

The vitriol, if any, comes from eventually having to use products created by programmers without a shred of curiosity, expect everything handed to them, and do the bare minimum to create a semblance of working products. How many times have you used a website/app and it works so bad that you want to hit the programmer who wrote it? Frankly, “why do I need to figure out what PATH means” is shockingly non-curious even a…

It could also come from having spent thousands of hours dealing with issues created by this type of person.

There's nothing wrong with being new to coding, not knowing things, and making mistakes - it's how we learn - but when you start your article with list of things that you couldn't be bothered to do a web search for, proudly proclaiming your ignorance and unwillingness to learn and expecting me to do your thinking for you, I don't have much interest in being nice and/or trying to teach you stuff.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#207

Post by user-the-name »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #202
user-the-name wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The command line is 100% superfluous. You can create and distribute a world-class iOS app without having to touch a command line even once. It is just not necessary. Nothing gets easier if you do. Because iOS has actual well-designed modern tooling.

Developing iOS apps isn't the be-all, end-all of programming. iOS itself is a consumption platform. It's garbage if you want to actually do anything (and so is Android), because the input bandwidth is severely limited. You don't need a command line on your phone, because there's hardly much you can do with it anyway. But sit in front of a device with a keyboard - one that's meant for creative use - and suddenly, the…

None of that is relevant. iOS is a fully-fledged OS, with at least as much complexity as anything else you'd be programming for.

Yet, to program for it, you don't need to use the command line. You just never need to touch it. It is possible to make a fully productive programming environment where the command line is not necessary, if you just put the effort in to do it like Apple has.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#208

Post by PotatoBoi »

_f9cu wrote: post #156
kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

How is your comment different from his post? Why I am questioning you is that You cannot call the author lazy. Just because one post gives you that opinion, doesn't mean he is a lazy person. The author gave a fresh opinion about web browsers and shared it with everyone. appreciate that. Problem - Browsers dont allow us to write code/ Solution - create browser extension / use console. Thinkers talk, doers do.

Look, I don't care about which editor you use: want to use vim? Fine, use it. Prefer Emacs? Looks good. You really like nano? Perfect! But for god sake don't expect that someone will ever take you seriously if you say you are experienced and don't know how to use a cli. How can you even work with computers not knowing what $PATH (yes, this exists on windows too fyi) is? This is just dumb. I'd also add: stop using javascript, don't, just don't (or, better, use vanilla-js).

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#209

Post by TeMPOraL »

maweki wrote: post #167
dijit wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> /usr/local/bin is an implementation detail from an OS nobody has used for decades. Are you taking the piss? Should we also remove SOCKET's because they were introduced in that same OS? It should be noted that _EVERY_ modern operating system implements a "path" system, even the ones that are very divergent.

Also, Namespacing and search paths are a concept in every environment where people name things. Be it the filesystem or a programming language itself. Even in normal Life, when identifying people or things, we have concepts of this everywhere. How can people see that as pointless?

And environmental variables, too. You can see the same pattern:

  process :: function
  path ::  namespacing
  command line argument :: function argument
  environmental variable :: dynamically bound variable
(Ok, that last concept may be alien for non-Lisp people.)

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#210

Post by user-the-name »

ccmcarey wrote: post #122
user-the-name wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? You are allowed to point out failings without having a perfect solution at hand.

It's just kind of .. pathetic, to make statements like: > Programming is massively over-complicated for no useful reason And then offer absolutely no justification for why this is the case, and to shrug off any questions as to what obvious improvements could be made. You offer no useful contributions to the conversation by doing this. None.

Well, here's an example: You can develop a fully featured, world-class iOS app, and distribute it, without even touching a command line. Nothing in the process would get easier by touching a command line. You just don't need it. There is a fully-featured environment that provides all the tooling you need without it.
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