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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

tomcritchlow.com

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Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#191

Post by user-the-name »

kichimi wrote: post #188
0-_-0 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In one statement you just revealed your age and experience level. What are you assuming about my experience level? I thought it was perfectly clear that the argument isn't "there should be no command line" but that knowledge of the command like should't be necessary for beginners. Just like e.g. knowing assebler shouldn't be (and isn't) neccessary for programming. That's why I put the parenthesized statement above,…

I disagree completely, and I'm starting to see now that you do not see the command line as programming, which is a fundamental flaw in how you're approaching your argument. The command line _IS_ a programming language. If you do not want to learn it then you do not want to learn programming.

The command line is 100% superfluous.

You can create and distribute a world-class iOS app without having to touch a command line even once. It is just not necessary. Nothing gets easier if you do.

Because iOS has actual well-designed modern tooling.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#192

Post by mrvenkman »

I also get frustrated sometimes when programming, especially in a new language or environment and every time I find the solution to an issue that has taken days to resolve, I wish I had studied computer science. I wish I had learned from the ground up instead of jumping straight into trying to write code because I would of learned WHY.

I'm off to buy a computer science book - any recommendations?

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#193

Post by Gehinnn »

I don't know whether the path is the problem that makes modern web dev so hard to learn.

I'm currently trying to setup the js testing library "jest" to use babel to transpile typescript and I get the most obscure error messages. This is painfully hard and I have years of experience with javascript/typescript [1].

I doubt there ever has been a more complex programming ecosystem than JavaScript's. No other system has more bundlers (webpack, rollup, metro, ..), transpilers (babel, typescript, flow, ...), testing libraries (jest, mocha, jasmine, ...), package managers (yarn, npm, pnpm, ...). It is just insane what we created.

[1] if you are curious, that is the error message. Good luck making sense of it. It probably is caused by non-compatible dependencies but yarn does not tell me.

Validation Error:

  Preset @babel/preset-typescript is invalid:

  The "id" argument must be of type string. Received type object
  TypeError [ERR_INVALID_ARG_TYPE]: The "id" argument must be of type string. Received type object

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#194

Post by TeMPOraL »

0-_-0 wrote: post #189
TeMPOraL wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why would anyone want that? Would you want your kitchen to be limited to plastic spoons and silicone bowls, because that's easy for a 2 year old to grasp? Pots and stoves and knives, after all, are too complicated, and God forbid the knife is metal and the stove is powered. You can't do useful things and cater for beginners at the same time, because that implies nothing can ever improve beyond what a beginner can…

No, I'm saying that your kitchen should contain plastic spoons and silicone bowls too, because that's easy for a 2 year old to grasp.

And so they do, and so there are plenty of programming tools and environments aimed at beginners. But, just like you can't expect to make a proper dinner with your kid's toy-utensils, if you want to build nontrivial software, you need to learn suitable tools for that. And the command line the most basic of serious tools.

(Hell, situation in programming is actually quite good for beginners. You can go very far with toys. For instance, people make and sell complex video games in clicker tools. The experience of pushing such tools to the limit tends to shine a light on why programming is complex in general: you're pushing at irreducible complexity. Serious tools like command line exist to help you manage that complexity better.)

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#195

Post by pjc50 »

user-the-name wrote: post #114
pjc50 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please demonstrate your simple alternative and its acceptance testing on real users.

Why? You are allowed to point out failings without having a perfect solution at hand.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer

> Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.

This is in reply to

> We've just chosen to keep things like this because we think it makes us clever.

Sneering at the unspecified "we".

> Programming can and should be much, much more user friendly than it is now

Work has been done on programming language accessibility for decades. It's often been controversial, e.g. Dijkstra versus BASIC, despite the huge practical success of BASIC as an introductory language across the microcomputer revolution. It's not enough to assert that something should be better, you've got to say something about how, in a way that at least acknowledges what has been tried already.

(Many of the ways in which the Javascript ecosystem is "bad" are the result of it being a horrible commercial battlefield over who gets to control the internet and all the computers connected to it and for what purpose)

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#198

Post by MaxBarraclough »

user-the-name wrote: post #176
kichimi wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which one? Please explain how it's pointless. What is esoteric about typing which program you want to run?

Standard unix shells. They contain a massive amount of complexity and obfuscation that only exists because that's how it was always done and nobody dares change it any longer.

Like what? Please be specific or we can't have a meaningful discussion.

I use Bash a fair amount and I don't consider it overly complicated as a shell. There are some rough edges in Unix, like handling spaces in directories, and I'm no fan of Bash as a scripting language, but I wouldn't say the basic model of the Unix command-line interface is overly complicated.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#199

Post by zimpenfish »

aspyct wrote: post #59

I feel like the author is confused between server-side and client-side development, and proceeds to say that programming is hard. He even goes on to quote himself (sigh) as a proof of what he proposes. Look, maybe someone just explained it badly to you, and you should look it up for yourself. However, if the command line looks scary to you... wait until you read bad documentation :) My point is: yes, programming is a…

> just like it's hard to become a good musician if you shy away from sheet music

A bunch of world famous artists would disagree with you there.

https://www.themusicstudio.ca/blog/2017/11/909/

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