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NFL player IQ by position

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Re: NFL player IQ by position

#81

Post by lexlibra »

martey wrote: post #64
lexlibra wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The existence of a racial gap in IQ is simply not in dispute. It shows up in SAT scores, it shows up in military IQ tests during times with a draft, and it shows up in numerous psychological studies. See for instance this paper from Brookings Institute, which is about as mainstream liberal as you can get ( http://www.brookings.edu/views/papers/dickens/20060619_iq.pd... ) The only question is if the difference or envi…

FYI, I specially created this account to post on this thread, because I was scared of being called a racist and didn't want that tarnishing my normal account. I think it is funny that you talk about how we "should not be scared of things 'you can't say" and about how we should "try to get an accurate view of reality" when you have basically created a sockpuppet to post this. If you really believe these things and thi…

I guess I was being rhetorical. The fact is, you can't say these things in America without risking significant career damage.

Re: NFL player IQ by position

#82

Post by pg »

quews wrote: post #72
lexlibra wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an explanation for why foot speed and intelligence are inversely correlated: "Upper body strength is relatively equally distributed between the races, but footspeed most definitely is not. So, tailbacks, wide receivers, and defensive players have a need for speed, so they are disproportionately black. I haven't checked recently, but in most recent years since Jason Sehorn's retirement, none of the 64 NFL start…

As a long time (silent) reader of Hacker News posts and comments, this comment easily ranks as one of the most offensive, and perhaps the most disturbing. The notion that race fundamentally has anything to do with intelligence should offend any sane, rational, science-minded person who is even just scarcely familiar with the history of the pseudo-science of eugenics and the countless studies debunking it many claims.…

If there's one thing more poisonous than racism it's publicly equating the failure to denounce x with believing x. That is a classic tool of demagogues. In fact, arguably the classic tool of demagogues.

So here's a denunciation for you: lexlibra's comment is lame, and yours is 10x lamer.

People who advocate conclusions for which the evidence is weak merely lead one away from the truth, but people who drag debates down to the level of "whoever's not with us is against us" strike right at the heart of it.

Re: NFL player IQ by position

#83

Post by gruseom »

quews wrote: post #72
lexlibra wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an explanation for why foot speed and intelligence are inversely correlated: "Upper body strength is relatively equally distributed between the races, but footspeed most definitely is not. So, tailbacks, wide receivers, and defensive players have a need for speed, so they are disproportionately black. I haven't checked recently, but in most recent years since Jason Sehorn's retirement, none of the 64 NFL start…

As a long time (silent) reader of Hacker News posts and comments, this comment easily ranks as one of the most offensive, and perhaps the most disturbing. The notion that race fundamentally has anything to do with intelligence should offend any sane, rational, science-minded person who is even just scarcely familiar with the history of the pseudo-science of eugenics and the countless studies debunking it many claims.…

Let me not speculate as to why not. Let me just say to all who know better, but said and will continue to say nothing – SHAME.

Flinging self-righteous accusations about only makes you seem shrill and shallow. Your use of a sockpuppet account to do it makes it cheap as well. (Yes, the other guy did that too.) Most of what you're offering here is a personal emotional response. That would be more effective if you gave it content that wasn't so formulaic (reacting from a socially conforming position and expressing outrage that others have not done the same).

Your main point appears to be that you're angry with pg for not sharing your response and rushing to say so. That suggests that you haven't read his essays very closely.

Re: NFL player IQ by position

#84

Post by byrneseyeview »

ojbyrne wrote: post #60
byrneseyeview wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good point. I somehow didn't consider it before. I guess if they're in the 99.5th percentile of size, very very few of them will have any traits that cause lower height. I agree that at 40 they will be faster. But for short bursts of speed, or for a run that requires frequent changes of direction (e.g. because you're being chased around) the higher IQ people will have a 'speed' advantage due to mental rather…

I don't think that's true. Being "quick", which I think you're talking about, is all about strength.

It's not, really. As Galton discovered, reaction time correlates with other kinds of intelligence.

I've read that modern tests show that some groups have a faster physical reaction speed, but a slower mental reaction speed -- e.g. the signal gets from eye to brain to hand slowly, but the hand moves fast.

Re: NFL player IQ by position

#85

Post by lexlibra »

wumi wrote: post #70
lexlibra wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The existence of a racial gap in IQ is simply not in dispute. It shows up in SAT scores, it shows up in military IQ tests during times with a draft, and it shows up in numerous psychological studies. See for instance this paper from Brookings Institute, which is about as mainstream liberal as you can get ( http://www.brookings.edu/views/papers/dickens/20060619_iq.pd... ) The only question is if the difference or envi…

I find your posts to be a bit over-generalizing and lacking of supporting evidence. Examining the physiques of West Africans versus East Africans makes the genetic explanation pretty obvious. What's obvious and could you share it with the rest of us? From the article shared below ( http://www.fims.org/default.asp?pageID=782860264 ): "In a study of the demographic characteristics of elite Ethiopian athletes, 38% of th…

I don't doubt that environment plays a role. And note that the paper you cite did not rule out genetics, and I think he quite overstated the conclusion based on the evidence presented. For the opposing case, try this article: http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/UPI_reconstruction.htm

Even more telling is the case of West African sprinters:

1) In the past six olympics, all 48 male finalists in the 100 meter dash were of West African descent. The chances of this happening by chance is infantesimally small.

2) Despite having the same West African descent, they all grew up in very different environments ( West Africa itself, the Carribean, U.S., Canada, England)

3) Sprinting is one of the most universal of all human activities. It's also one that requires the least number of hours to acheive world class training and conditioning ( I believe I've read world class sprinters only train about 10-20 hours a week ).

Studies have also shown that men of West African decent have more fast twitch muscle and higher levels of testostorone. The evidence for a substantial genetic component seems overwhelming to me.

Re: NFL player IQ by position

#86

Post by lexlibra »

wumi wrote: post #71
lexlibra wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an explanation for why foot speed and intelligence are inversely correlated: "Upper body strength is relatively equally distributed between the races, but footspeed most definitely is not. So, tailbacks, wide receivers, and defensive players have a need for speed, so they are disproportionately black. I haven't checked recently, but in most recent years since Jason Sehorn's retirement, none of the 64 NFL start…

"Remember, these are averages, and all groups overlap. You can't deduce an individual's intelligence from her ethnicity. The only thing you can reasonably infer is that anyone who presumes to rate your IQ based on the color of your skin is probably dumber than you are." http://www.slate.com/toolbar.aspx?action=print&id=217812...

Of course. The original post was dealing with averages, and that's what I was trying to explain.

Re: NFL player IQ by position

#87

Post by lexlibra »

cglee wrote: post #58
lexlibra wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I think that's why so people ( including me once upon a time) want to avoid talking about genetic explanations for the IQ gap as long as there is any possibility of it being environmental. But I also think a lot of damage can be done by avoiding talk of genetic differences. The media, politicians, and educational institutions have been telling black people that the problems in the black community are all a r…

I agree with the first part of your post. Regarding the second part of our post: 1) if black communities are still feeling the negative effects of slavery and discrimination, then we should recognize this, regardless of its effects on economic advancement (ie, tell the truth, even when it hurts) 2) the phrase "telling black people that" really bothers me because it subtly implies black people can't figure it out with…

maybe it's because I live in Texas or maybe because I'm a minority, but I sense more hostility from whites towards blacks than vice versa

My experience as a white person living in northern cities is very different. I've been called racial slurs when walking through black neighborhoods, and several of my friends have been mugged. Walking through black neighbords and hearing hip-hop blasting that demonizes people of my skin color is not a very comfortable experience. This blog post is good introduction to the topic, from the black northerner perspective: http://www.ta-nehisi.com/2008/07/a-very-uncomfortable-post-a...

the phrase "telling black people that" really bothers me because it subtly implies black people can't figure it out without help

Most people rely on the media and educational institutions for their information, that's the job of those institutions. And a lot of it is black leaders telling black people that racism is the problem.

I haven't seen any research that has tied racial hostilities to lack of economic advancement in the US. You could actually argue the opposite since US became an economic powerhouse after WWII, and racial tensions were very high then

In the north, there is far more residential segregation today than there was fifty years ago. I think a major factor for this is that it's just not very safe for a white person to live in many predominately black neighborhoods. This ends up cutting off the black community economically.

Re: NFL player IQ by position

#88

Post by anewaccountname »

echair wrote: post #74
anewaccountname wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Studies of IQ highly correlate with latitude. People of northern Chinese and Mongolian origin score higher than the Vietnamese. In limited studies, Intuits score higher than Native Americans from Central America. 60,000 years is actually quite a long time, and the skills necessary to survive harsh northern winters are very different than those needed to survive in tropical jungles. Hpw about Ashkenazi Jews, whom hav…

They originate from a higher latitude than they like to think. That's why they look so different from sephardic Jews. (But this is also a controversial topic.)

Can you cite a credible source?

Re: NFL player IQ by position

#89

Post by lexlibra »

pg wrote: post #82
quews wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a long time (silent) reader of Hacker News posts and comments, this comment easily ranks as one of the most offensive, and perhaps the most disturbing. The notion that race fundamentally has anything to do with intelligence should offend any sane, rational, science-minded person who is even just scarcely familiar with the history of the pseudo-science of eugenics and the countless studies debunking it many claims.…

If there's one thing more poisonous than racism it's publicly equating the failure to denounce x with believing x. That is a classic tool of demagogues. In fact, arguably the classic tool of demagogues. So here's a denunciation for you: lexlibra's comment is lame, and yours is 10x lamer. People who advocate conclusions for which the evidence is weak merely lead one away from the truth, but people who drag debates dow…

lexlibra's comment is lame ... People who advocate conclusions for which the evidence is weak merely lead one away from the truth

I'm curious what was lame about the comment?

The evidence for the two main propositions is pretty overwhelming. People of West African descent dominate short distance running at the highest levels. For instance, in the past six olympics, all 48 male finalists in the 100 meter dash were of West African descent. Likewise, the speed positions in football are dominated by African-Americans compared to the non-speed positions.

On the second proposition, for whatever the reason, black Americans of West African descent consistently score a standard deviation lower on IQ tests and IQ-like tests ( SAT, Armed Forces Qualifying Exam). The American Psychological Association reports: "The relatively low mean of the distribution of African-American intelligence test scores has been discussed for many years. Although studies using different tests and samples yield a range of results, the Black mean is typically about one standard deviation (about 15 points) below that of Whites (Loehlin et al, 1975; Jensen, 1980; Reynolds et al, 1987)." ( http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/apa_01.html ) The existence of the IQ gap is simply not in dispute.

It seems that my explanation fits the evidence better than anything else proposed here. If there is evidence controverting my view, or supporting another, I would be happy to hear it.

Re: NFL player IQ by position

#90

Post by mhartl »

lexlibra wrote: post #89
pg wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's one thing more poisonous than racism it's publicly equating the failure to denounce x with believing x. That is a classic tool of demagogues. In fact, arguably the classic tool of demagogues. So here's a denunciation for you: lexlibra's comment is lame, and yours is 10x lamer. People who advocate conclusions for which the evidence is weak merely lead one away from the truth, but people who drag debates dow…

lexlibra's comment is lame ... People who advocate conclusions for which the evidence is weak merely lead one away from the truth I'm curious what was lame about the comment? The evidence for the two main propositions is pretty overwhelming. People of West African descent dominate short distance running at the highest levels. For instance, in the past six olympics, all 48 male finalists in the 100 meter dash were of…

I don't think there is anything lame about your comment. The article in question explicitly involved IQ, and (because of differential representation by position) implicitly involved race, so your comment was relevant and on point, whether or not any given reader agrees with you.
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