Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#141

Post by wheels » Mon, May 23, 2011, 4:40 PM UTC

This was one of the major draws for me for moving to Europe in my early 20s (from the US). After working one year in the US and having one week of vacation, it was bordering on surreal to have 6.

That said, most Americans wouldn't like the European pay scales. While a developer gets 3-6 times the vacation in Germany, they make half as much money.

For me it was a great trade; I still had a middle class income and spent my 20s bouncing around the world visiting more than 30 countries on 5 continents, with zero gaps in my employment.

Now that I'm an employer, I still see it as a great trade: employees are a lot cheaper here, and seem to be happier. But again, while most American software developers would love to have more vacation, I've heard them also repeat ludicrous things about how they can "barely survive on $60k/year".

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#142

Post by kgermino » Mon, May 23, 2011, 4:40 PM UTC

ugh wrote: post #55

michaelpinto wrote: post #13

The flip side of this is that we have Summer vacation for schools (unlike the rest of the world) and have institutionalized Spring Break for college students. Sadly we see the idea of vacation as being for the very young or the very old who retire.

That can’t be true. Bavarian schools, for example, have a five-week summer vacation this year and additionally eight weeks of vacation spread over the whole year (one week in spring and autumn, two weeks for Easter, Pentecost and Christmas). There are also quite a few state and federal holidays but, as you can see, vacations are already clustered around those holidays. I think there are maybe two or three additional…

For reference: I'm in a Midwestern university and I have off from May 15 thru the end of August. IME that's about average at semester schools.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#143

Post by rjh29 » Mon, May 23, 2011, 4:41 PM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #114

bretthoerner wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since this is HN, there's a pretty good chance you're an Engineer of some kind. Where are you (or what do you do?) that companies can get away with this?

This is the norm in the UK, companies close over the holidays and there are mandatory holidays that go with that. Being clear about this with new (and especially young) employees is a good idea as to people straight out of college, it's not obvious. But there's certainly nothing dodgy about it.

Is it really? My company runs over the holidays and our problem is actually finding people who can work during that time. Surely lots of tech companies have to keep running over Christmas?

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#144

Post by xnerdr » Mon, May 23, 2011, 4:41 PM UTC

mvalle wrote: post #120

jasonkester wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about your choice of words up there, and you might just come up with your solution. Force. As in, my employer is forcing me to take shorter vacations. My employer is forcing me to work my vacations around their schedule. That's not what he's doing. He's coercing you. It's different. He's implying that if you take the vacation you want, there might not be a job waiting when you get back. The answer to that is "f…

or, if the employer knows that if she finds a replacement for you, she will have to find replacements for all her employees, then she won't bother coercing you at all.

and this is why i'm amazed programmers have not yet formed a union.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#145

Post by baconner » Mon, May 23, 2011, 4:42 PM UTC

farrel wrote: post #42

How many Americans can only afford health coverage via their workplace plan? How many Americans live in right-to-work states and can be dismissed without a reason? Add that together and you have a lot of fear.

The worst part of it IMO is that even if you could pay for insurance without your workplace plan huge numbers of Americans can't get it at all due to pre existing conditions. So this is a serious impediment to workers leaving stable jobs that they don't like to do things like found small startups or even just move to a new job that may not be as stable.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#146

Post by MatthewPhillips » Mon, May 23, 2011, 4:43 PM UTC

dmm wrote: post #122

k3dz wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can do that only if you are a senior dev.. what do junior devs, recent college grads do?

Live on less than half of your net(take-home) pay and save the rest. Now for every month that you work, you are also saving a month's worth of living expenses. After two years of this you have two years of fuck you money. Two years is enough time to learn python or something else significant. Your savings can last even longer if you get a $10/hr job such as waiting tables part-time. Work daily on developing marketabl…

Recent grads are only making ~40k, some times less, some times considerably less (people have posted Ask HNs about this topic before). As someone who used to be in that camp, living off half your net at that salary range is not realistic; living on 75% is barely so, if you're eating bologna sandwiches every night.

Having a second job is a great idea, it's just too bad you can't get a good consulting job when you're a junior dev. Once you have a couple of years of experience you can start to get consulting work and from there you are pretty much set financially. The first couple of years are tough though. Vacations aren't realistic unless you have family that helps you out.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#147

Post by Aloisius » Mon, May 23, 2011, 4:43 PM UTC

If the US had the culture of taking off August, it would be far easier to take off 3 weeks since everyone in your company would be doing it. Logistically however I don't really understand how taking August off works in Europe. Where does everyone go? Doesn't it get super crowded?

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#148

Post by thetrumanshow » Mon, May 23, 2011, 4:44 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #91

[deleted] wrote: post #74

[deleted]

I honestly don't understand how a group of people who so often invoke the phrase "the plural of anecdote is not data" can be voting this comment up. It's prattle -- pure American Exceptionalism and John Wayne Work Ethic -- designed to make people feel guilty for not working like dogs. So, your grandparents worked very hard. Well, so did mine -- on the other side of the management/labor divide. My grandfather did long…

"And not for nothing: I'll wager that your grandparents didn't work hard with the intention that their grandchildren would have to spend their lives working for a company that never gave them time off."

Very interesting. I had never thought of this... that the impetus for the former generations was, perhaps, to make it so that their children didn't have to work their asses off. But, instead, we took their dedication to work as some kind of example of how an 'honest day's work is done' and felt a moral obligation to do the same, and we pass this lesson on to our children.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#149

Post by tptacek » Mon, May 23, 2011, 4:44 PM UTC

Relative to cost-of-living, are wages the same, lower, or higher in countries with mandatory paid vacations? One wonders whether there's a delusive "free lunch" notion underpinning Euro vacation policy, whether governments really can force companies to pay everyone more for the same level of output, or whether Euro economies have discovered an effective way to engineer a more efficient labor force by attempting to outlaw burnout.

Because, at the end of the day, the company is buying completed-and-sold widgets for their salary dollar. All things being equal (including widget output), if the company pays you $50k a year and gives you 4 more "paid" vacation weeks, they gave you a raise. You can mandate 2, 4, or 8 weeks of vacation, but --- at least in middle class jobs --- you can't really mandate a salary floor.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#150

Post by adestefan » Mon, May 23, 2011, 4:45 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #10

I'm wondering how much of it is because people neglect to negotiate their vacation time when changing jobs. Most American workplaces start you out with 2 weeks and then usually add a week or so after so many years of seniority. When you change jobs, how many of you ask for that same amount of vacation time at the new company? Or do you just accept that you're new and don't want to push things by asking for more at th…

When my old company was going under and a lot of us were looking for new jobs this was a tactic we all used. Go for pay and vacation time increases on offers. Some of us took more pay, some took more vacation. One guy got 6 weeks vacation.

My new company is 3 weeks vacation and 5 days sick/personal for everyone. Instead I just took more money with the understanding that I could get approved for leave without pay as needed.