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Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

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Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#341
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The "make producers pay" trope is also a fallacy imho. Packaging cost is just passed through the price to the consumer. Packaging and recycling are quite cheap for most products, so unpackaged goods are barely cheaper (often even more expensive, since enviromentally conscious stuff is "premium"). And unpackaged goods are damaged more often than properly packaged ones, so they'll rot on the shelves to be thrown a…

> The "make producers pay" trope is also a fallacy imho. Packaging cost is just passed through the price to the consumer. Packaging and recycling are quite cheap for most products, so unpackaged goods are barely cheaper (often even more expensive, since enviromentally conscious stuff is "premium"). It’s not a fallacy. The tax is just too low. Keep raising the tax on plastic until it curbs behavior, problem solved. Th…

That's unpopular in part because it's extremely regressive. The amount you will have to change your life is going to be directly related to how wealthy you are. The rich are unlikely to change. They'll simply pay more and move on, or dodge it by refueling and shopping in other countries. The middle class will have some adjustments. Maybe running the heat less, maybe they trade in their SUV for a sedan, maybe they vacation less. They'll get by fine.

The poor will be utterly destroyed by this. Their cars are often the worst polluters because they're old (and may have had the catyllitic converter stolen in a bad neighborhood). Food costs will go up due to increased transportation costs (and possibly packaging costs, if suitable green replacements can't be found). Their homes are extremely unlikely to have modern, energy efficient upgrades (things like windows, more modern insulation, even sealing around windows might be bad). Their appliances are likewise unlikely to be modern and energy efficient. And supply and demand is not a good answer. If it was, no one would be living in those anyways. No one wants to live with a draft, but sometimes your options are a drafty apartment in a bad part of town, or a drafty apartment in a worse part of town.

I do think it's doable, but it needs to be a lot more nuanced than "tax fossil fuels until people cave". That foists most of the problem onto the people with the least means to change.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#342
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult to predict how much something will cost in the future. If your example was followed then a device that lasts a year and a device that lasts 10 years would have the same added cost. This is not ideal, since it may not be obvious to consumers how long the device will last.

> If your example was followed then a device that lasts a year and a device that lasts 10 years would have the same added cost. This is not ideal, since it may not be obvious to consumers how long the device will last. That seems entirely orthogonal to me, and market forces would presumably be able to handle consumer preference for longer-lasting products (barring other market failures, like monopolies, but that's al…

> Note that the person who buys the 1-year devices every year pays 10x the "externality fees" as the person who buys the 10-year device.

That may not be clear at time of purchase though. You could express this as an estimated rate per year, though. Both devices have a $50 externality fee. One has a 1 year warranty, 1 has a 10 year warranty, so the first has a $50/year externality and the second has a $5/year externality. Doing it by warranty period also helps prevent claiming a device should last much longer than it does.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#343

I kind of wonder if we're looking at solving this the wrong way. Instead of mandating that manufacturers take specific steps to fix the waste problem, maybe it would be better to tag items at manufacture and charge device makers a percentage based on how long before it enters the waste stream. Manufacturers could solve this by either: - Making their things easy to repair - Creating in house recycling programs - Makin…

For a short while, it was super trivial and cheap to fix smartphones. Lots of little shops would have spare or alternative parts for popular models. Today, it's extremely hard and expensive to do so. If we would get "calorie labels" on smartphones using iFixit reparavility scores, I'm sure maybe people would be influenced by them.

They should have to include a list of prices for common repairs. I know a few people who would probably shop based on the price to repair a broken screen.

We're at the point where repairs are an expected part of a phones lifecycle. Battery replacements are basically required now unless you want to buy a new phone every year or two. We really should start adding info about that to packaging.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#344
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting appliances repaired is harder than it once was. Disposability culture drove many repair shops out of business. Many repair shops I and my family used to are now gone or dying. The guy who used to do sewing machine repairs for my mother is gone. The cobbler that used to repair my boots is gone. Furthermore, appliances that used to come with repair manuals no longer do, and finding the manual online is often a…

It's a good point, but it's not really a failure of product design. Appliances themselves now are not any less reliable than they were in mid-century. There is no grand conspiracy of manufacturers filing down screw threads to make them fail. I did not repair any of my fridges (they never failed in all of my adult life), but I did repair my washing machine (AEG 15y.o.) and my beans-to-coffee DeLonghi (10+ y.o). Both w…

True, except there are manufacturers like Apple or Sony which won't provide genuine spare parta to retail people (tried that). Then you have to buy parts from "for parts" eBay auctions or counterfait/bad quality batteries from random Chinese seller...

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#345
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not push it on both fronts simultaneously? Right to repair has strong benefits for both individual freedoms and the environment.

Indeed, but you see, individual freedoms is not enough anymore.

Two is better than one, isn't it?

Also, individual freedoms aren't the be-all and end-all. We're lucky that they align with environmental concerns in this case.

Additionally, right to repair isn't really about individual freedoms. Most people aren't going to fix products that require complex repairs. The right to repair is, first and foremost, about allowing people to exercise that right through delegation to specialists. Unencumbered repairability allows for local markets of repair shops to form, that can offer repairs at reasonable price points.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "make producers pay" trope is also a fallacy imho. Packaging cost is just passed through the price to the consumer. Packaging and recycling are quite cheap for most products, so unpackaged goods are barely cheaper (often even more expensive, since enviromentally conscious stuff is "premium"). It’s not a fallacy. The tax is just too low. Keep raising the tax on plastic until it curbs behavior, problem solved. Th…

That's unpopular in part because it's extremely regressive. The amount you will have to change your life is going to be directly related to how wealthy you are. The rich are unlikely to change. They'll simply pay more and move on, or dodge it by refueling and shopping in other countries. The middle class will have some adjustments. Maybe running the heat less, maybe they trade in their SUV for a sedan, maybe they vac…

> That's unpopular in part because it's extremely regressive. The amount you will have to change your life is going to be directly related to how wealthy you are. The rich are unlikely to change. They'll simply pay more and move on, or dodge it by refueling and shopping in other countries.

Wealth inequality is a different problem, and has a different solution (taxes on wealth and income and otherwise redistribution of wealth).

Want people to use fewer fossil fuels? Make fossil fuels more costly.

Want people to have more equal lives? Make wealth inequality more costly.

And this would have to be a global solution, with the quality of life for the people used to using tons of fossil fuels (America, Western Europe, etc) going down towards the quality of life of people in poorer countries who don’t use as many fossil fuels.

And that is not acceptable to pretty much all people in the developed world, rich or poor.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#347
post #56
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure these are usually standard bulbs ...

Not modern fridges. That trend has become ubiquitous: cars, laptops, phones... Nothing is designed to be fixed at home anymore. If there were regulations that required it, we'd still have the same advanced tech, but it'd be repair friendly.

For example HP Elitebooks ond Dell business class laptops have most parts replaceable and the keyboard is secured by screws.

HP Pavilion gaming, ASUS ROG Strix and newer Macbooks have keyboards secured by melting topcase plastic pins or bolts so you can't easily replace keyboard, you need to replace the whole topcase.

And the keyboard is something which degrades by use and can easily be damaged by liquid...

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#348
post #109
post #5

I can't describe how much I hope something comes out of it. Not because I have some illusion of this tackling corporate greed, or helping the environment - devices will likely become more expensive and bulkier as a result, supply chain of replacement parts is generating heaps of waste too. I simply am surrounded by tens and hundreds of sort-of-broken devices that don't force me to replace yet, but are not fixable eit…

I just had my 4000€ MacBook Pro (2017) die, 5 months out of warranty, because of a blown capacitor. (probably a $0.20 part tops) They have to change the whole motherboard, lose all my data. Price of a new machine... grumble, grumble

Soldering SSDs on the motherboard is a crime! Data storage modules should always be replaceable: 1. because they can fail easily (limited write counts), 2. because people need to wipe data before selling

I have seen a "for parts" Macbook on eBay with bad motherboard where the seller drilled through SSD and T2 chips to "wipe data". While drilling they damaged the topcase as well.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#349

I strongly prefer to repair devices and am reluctant to throw any broken manufactured good out, even when I have poor prospects of repairing them. Instead, I just hold on to them. Phones, stereos, vacuum cleaners, clocks, computers. My shelves are full of broken items, and good intentions, frozen in amber. Why do I think like this? I think it is a psychological condition. It isn't a rational choice. If I apply my edu…

There is eBay and similar sites where you can list "For parts or noy working" items and get quite a good value out of it.

If you keep it for X-years in your garage, after those years these models won't be actively used anymore and less people will be looking for parts => it will become less worthy to the point you will have to throw them away...

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#350
"Guaranteeing" is a strong word. For now they want manufacturers to label products with the estimated time it's going to last. I'm not sure if this is going to be useful at all if there is no economic incentive (eg. offering a warranty during that time frame).

Example: Opel just stopped providing the OnStar service, rendering the hardware useless. My car is only 3 years old, still under warranty, but they're no longer providing service (nor offering an alternative == a repair)

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