What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design? • Hacker News Board

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#61

Post by mytailorisrich » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 1:27 PM UTC

throwaway2245 wrote: post #60

mytailorisrich wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you're trying to argue about at this point. I'm stating facts here: UK roads tend to be very narrow to the point that it is difficult/impossible to just add cycle lanes, and even new roads or development do not include space for cycle lanes (when they should). You show me examples in the Netherlands where they have built or are building new infrastructures where cycle lanes are accounted for. Well, yes…

> You show me examples in the Netherlands where they have built or are building new infrastructures where cycle lanes are accounted for. No, I'm showing you extremely old infrastructure (Delft: founded 1246, Rijswijk: pre-historic) that have invested in modern solutions for cycling. The towns I have picked that are almost exact equivalents for Henley here, except that Henley has not bothered. [For what it's worth, I…

Old/new it does not matter.

> I picked towns that are almost exact equivalents for Henley, except that Henley has not bothered.

Well, that's my point, isn't it? Glad we agree... The thing is that it is difficult to resolve when that has been the case for decades, if not centuries because it's like that everywhere and you cannot decide to re-do half the country's road network and to raze everything that's in the way, especially in the UK.

19th century Paris: They did raze a large part of the city to make way for new avenues. 17th century London: After the Great Fire they rebuilt following exactly the previous narrow roads because no-one wanted to lose an inch or pay for an inch, and it's still the way any new projects are welcomed...

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#62

Post by throwaway2245 » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #61

throwaway2245 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You show me examples in the Netherlands where they have built or are building new infrastructures where cycle lanes are accounted for. No, I'm showing you extremely old infrastructure (Delft: founded 1246, Rijswijk: pre-historic) that have invested in modern solutions for cycling. The towns I have picked that are almost exact equivalents for Henley here, except that Henley has not bothered. [For what it's worth, I…

Old/new it does not matter. > I picked towns that are almost exact equivalents for Henley, except that Henley has not bothered. Well, that's my point, isn't it? Glad we agree... The thing is that it is difficult to resolve when that has been the case for decades, if not centuries because it's like that everywhere and you cannot decide to re-do half the country's road network and to raze everything that's in the way,…

>The thing is that it is difficult to resolve when that has been the case for decades, if not centuries because it's like that everywhere and you cannot decide to re-do half the country's road network and to raze everything that's in the way, especially in the UK.

My point is only that this is exactly what the Netherlands has already done, which shows that it is perfectly possible to resolve (and, in general, without any razing - the Dutch are at least as proud of their history as the British)

The fact that the Netherlands looks good now is because these exact same problems have been solved over time. The UK could even benefit from an easier time, since it gets to just copy the best-working solutions.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#63

Post by throwaway2245 » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 1:43 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #61

throwaway2245 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You show me examples in the Netherlands where they have built or are building new infrastructures where cycle lanes are accounted for. No, I'm showing you extremely old infrastructure (Delft: founded 1246, Rijswijk: pre-historic) that have invested in modern solutions for cycling. The towns I have picked that are almost exact equivalents for Henley here, except that Henley has not bothered. [For what it's worth, I…

Old/new it does not matter. > I picked towns that are almost exact equivalents for Henley, except that Henley has not bothered. Well, that's my point, isn't it? Glad we agree... The thing is that it is difficult to resolve when that has been the case for decades, if not centuries because it's like that everywhere and you cannot decide to re-do half the country's road network and to raze everything that's in the way,…

To respond to your edit.

19th century London: they razed whole neighbourhoods to construct the Underground.

21st century London: they propose to raze the St Pancras estate (with compulsory purchase orders) to build the HS2 railway.

But cycling doesn't require razing: the solutions I have given to your suggested problems don't raze a single thing.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#64

Post by DrBazza » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 1:43 PM UTC

markvdb wrote: post #36

DrBazza wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, any Dutch expat you meet is silently judging your country on the safety of its cycling infrastructure. And so you should. The UK's cycling infrastructure is embarrassingly bad. An example. Local to me, recently, the government spent over £100m on a new road junction, to replace an old one. One of the main reasons that they had to build a new junction was that they claimed they could not remove traffic lights f…

Actually, bicycle tunnels - with a limited slope of course, like all other bicycle infrastructure - are recommended over bicycle bridges. These are more comfortable for cyclists. Gravity helps one cycle down, and the kinetic energy gained helps cyclists on the way up in the second half of the tunnel.

Agreed. In England, however, tunnels particularly in towns tend to attract anti-social behaviour, which is rather unfortunate.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#65

Post by DrBazza » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

phicoh wrote: post #56

DrBazza wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends, but yes. There are a lot of deaths each year, and the law is not in favour of the cyclist either. In fact, it gets worse: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45154708 Stay away from the cities, and it's generally safer, but at the same time you'll find cars doing 60 mph on single carriageway roads (the national speed limit), which can also be marked as a national cycle route. If you cycle somewhere where cars d…

The side road can be restructured to give bikes priority. And put some good speedbumps on the side road to give cars a hint that they need to pay attention.

Agreed. They can, but they never are. For car drivers, the expectation is that they have right of way on a road, and they that come to a halt at the road junction, and not a few yards before it because there's a bike path crossing.

Town planners/local planning departments are under so much pressure that they literally just end up ticking boxes, and rarely push back on house builders to change their site plans. The 'desire path' is a straight line, for both pedestrians and cyclists, yet new housing estates are allowed to put in bendy cyclepath/footpaths next to otherwise straight roads. It is ridiculous.

Anything 'new' to car drivers in the UK is a problem. We definitely should try and change UK roads to be more bike friendly, but that's the reality. The new bike roundabout in Cambridge, unique in the UK, but common in Europe, and.... accidents: https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/cambrid...

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#66

Post by phicoh » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 2:04 PM UTC

DrBazza wrote: post #65

phicoh wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The side road can be restructured to give bikes priority. And put some good speedbumps on the side road to give cars a hint that they need to pay attention.

Agreed. They can, but they never are. For car drivers, the expectation is that they have right of way on a road, and they that come to a halt at the road junction, and not a few yards before it because there's a bike path crossing. Town planners/local planning departments are under so much pressure that they literally just end up ticking boxes, and rarely push back on house builders to change their site plans. The 'd…

One thing to consider is that it takes a very long time for the 'cars first' mentality to change. Both in drivers and in planning. Ideally, people who drive a car should also cycle, to know what to expect from bikes. Same for people who plan new roads.

With respect to roundabouts, I'm not sure there is a way to do it right.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#67

Post by eythian » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #52

throwaway2245 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think the centre of Amsterdam has wide roads? It does not.

That's great but I fail to see the relation with my comment. I'm not talking about very central roads that can be mostly restricted to pedestrians, or city areas with narrow streets but also little to no traffic. I'm talking about roads in general. Amsterdam has many roads that look hugely wide for British standards. Example: h https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7524584,-1.2749531,3a,75y,... This is one of the main ro…

You said:

> So roads are as narrow as possible and congested, which in itself is not great for bikes but also makes bike lanes near impossible.

They replied:

> Do you think the centre of Amsterdam has wide roads? It does not.

That is the relationship with your comment. The centre of Amsterdam does not tend to have wide roads (with a handful of exceptions) and yet has bikes. Indeed, it is possible to drive down most of those roads, however the city has put a lot of effort into discouraging it which reduces the congestion and makes biking nicer.

Now, newly built areas tend to have wider streets, but there are plenty of old city centres in the Netherlands that are bike friendly, despite their being as narrow as possible. Congestion can be dealt with much more easily.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#68

Post by throwaway2245 » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

teekert wrote: post #49

stasiu wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great insight in this from a Canadian in Amsterdam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMed1qceJ_Q

Wow, great insight indeed! I do feel really afraid to ever ride my bike with my Dutch attitude outside the Netherlands now, especially without a helmet as everybody normally does here... Wow, "punishment passes", how inhuman! Edit: I looked into it a bit more, apparently videos of our prime-minster on his bike went viral! [0], how funny for such a normal thing. The dutch comments are pretty telling indeed: - "Up next…

> apparently videos of our prime-minster on his bike went viral!, how funny for such a normal thing.

This is a very intentional and knowing part of Mark Rutte's brand. You often see him being filmed jumping on his bicycle - I mean, here, in the Dutch news. He is doing that deliberately to invoke national pride.

Compare image searches: "Mark Rutte fiets" (the prime-minister, apparently thousands of results), "Hugo de Jonge fiets" (the most media-friendly deputy prime-minister, no relevant results)

Also, there are frequent news stories within the Netherlands that are just "look, the Royal Family cycles".

It's something the Dutch are very proud of. Strange to claim otherwise.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#69

Post by bklaasen » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 3:19 PM UTC

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #7

tnolet wrote: post #3

I remember seeing this video some years ago and, as a Dutchman, was astounded how much I learned about the Dutch way of treating cyclists. It just seems so obvious and normal when you grow up in it. I started biking to school at age 6. No helmet, no parent accompanying. So did all my friends. Later, I had shitty jobs in far flung industrial areas. All had proper bike lanes. The list goes on. Remember though, as the v…

Reading this comment, this is also the first time I realize that this is not normal. It is unusual globally for six year olds to cycle to school?

In Ireland during the 1980s, 50% of kids cycled to school. Now it's 2%. I'm sure there's a qualifier there about urban/suburban/rural; I'll try to dig up the report.

I was one of those 1980s kids; the bicycle sheds contained several hundred bikes, all year round. I never heard of any kid being killed on a bike, out of 1,200 students over six years.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#70

Post by teekert » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

throwaway2245 wrote: post #68

teekert wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, great insight indeed! I do feel really afraid to ever ride my bike with my Dutch attitude outside the Netherlands now, especially without a helmet as everybody normally does here... Wow, "punishment passes", how inhuman! Edit: I looked into it a bit more, apparently videos of our prime-minster on his bike went viral! [0], how funny for such a normal thing. The dutch comments are pretty telling indeed: - "Up next…

> apparently videos of our prime-minster on his bike went viral!, how funny for such a normal thing. This is a very intentional and knowing part of Mark Rutte's brand. You often see him being filmed jumping on his bicycle - I mean, here, in the Dutch news. He is doing that deliberately to invoke national pride. Compare image searches: "Mark Rutte fiets" (the prime-minister, apparently thousands of results), "Hugo de…

Yeah I can imagine it's part of Rutte's brand indeed. And, true, I do feel some pride. Well, I guess it's nice that in incites pride and not a "Damn Cyclists" reaction. It is indeed part of our national identity.