Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

youtube.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 70 posts

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#11

Post by 47r6dudh »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #2

I must say that I find it rather odd that apparently it is “phænomenal” that 25% of all trips are by bike. What other means of transportation would one use for short distances where a bike is simply faster than a car due to ease of parking? Personally, however, I use a skateboard fitted with 100 mm all terrain wheels for even greater ease of parking.

Personally I'd escooter everywhere if my own city hadn't hobbled them thoroughly (both dockless and personal). I respect the cycling community but it's just too much work for me and I imagine many similarly unambitious people.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#13

Post by spiderfarmer »

renewiltord wrote: post #12

In theory probably something but combine the fact that Europeans are incredibly supercilious about this stuff and Americans are incredibly defensive about this and I don't think Seattle is going to change that much.

What would an average American care if we are proud of our infrastructure or not? I think it has a lot more to do with Americans not paying enough taxes to make this worth considering.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#14

Post by DrBazza »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #6
dairylee wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For myself, in the UK, it's not about which mode of transport is faster but which mode of transport is safer.

It is truly unsafe to take a bicycle in the U.K.?

It depends, but yes. There are a lot of deaths each year, and the law is not in favour of the cyclist either. In fact, it gets worse: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45154708

Stay away from the cities, and it's generally safer, but at the same time you'll find cars doing 60 mph on single carriageway roads (the national speed limit), which can also be marked as a national cycle route. If you cycle somewhere where cars don't normally encounter cyclists, it can be "fun" as the motorists don't know how to behave.

The trouble with the UK is that even so-called cycle paths are shared with footpaths, so pedestrians are all over the place, and cycle paths that are getting built as 'joint' footpaths, mean as a cyclist you also stop at every road junction. Compare that to Europe, where the cycle path is an additional lane next to the road/main carriageway and is usually physically separated in some way for safety. In the UK this has the unfortunate effect of making a large percentage of cyclist just us the road (which they are legally entitled to do), because the cycle path next to the road "stops" every 100 yards because there's a road joining the main carriageway that you have to cross.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#15

Post by mrsuprawsm »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #7
tnolet wrote: post #3

I remember seeing this video some years ago and, as a Dutchman, was astounded how much I learned about the Dutch way of treating cyclists. It just seems so obvious and normal when you grow up in it. I started biking to school at age 6. No helmet, no parent accompanying. So did all my friends. Later, I had shitty jobs in far flung industrial areas. All had proper bike lanes. The list goes on. Remember though, as the v…

Reading this comment, this is also the first time I realize that this is not normal. It is unusual globally for six year olds to cycle to school?

At least in the UK, it would be very abnormal to either let your 6 year old child cycle to school, or to let them walk unaccompanied. Let alone both.

Only when children reach about 11 would it be normal to allow them to travel unaccompanied.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#16

Post by renewiltord »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #13
renewiltord wrote: post #12

In theory probably something but combine the fact that Europeans are incredibly supercilious about this stuff and Americans are incredibly defensive about this and I don't think Seattle is going to change that much.

What would an average American care if we are proud of our infrastructure or not? I think it has a lot more to do with Americans not paying enough taxes to make this worth considering.

Inexplicably it matters a lot because people behave to only buy those things. It's why you get CA HSR (a project that's already pie in the sky) reporting that they'll use a signaling system like nothing else in the world. How about just doing something that's like everything else in the world? Doesn't sell. NIH syndrome is America. But that's okay, that's why startups happen here more often.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#17

Post by Blikkentrekker »

mrsuprawsm wrote: post #15
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading this comment, this is also the first time I realize that this is not normal. It is unusual globally for six year olds to cycle to school?

At least in the UK, it would be very abnormal to either let your 6 year old child cycle to school, or to let them walk unaccompanied. Let alone both. Only when children reach about 11 would it be normal to allow them to travel unaccompanied.

*laughs in My First Errand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eMZp8KsZ5k

It's fairly normal in Japan to let five year olds travel alone by train, apparently.

I have to say I noticed before that the Anglo-Saxon often considers the minor to be seemingly mentally deficient and incapable of making the most basic choices and having the most basic responsibilities.

It's too much of a culture of “Children are incapable; adults always know better, and must make every decision for them.”.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#18

Post by dstick »

tnolet wrote: post #3

I remember seeing this video some years ago and, as a Dutchman, was astounded how much I learned about the Dutch way of treating cyclists. It just seems so obvious and normal when you grow up in it. I started biking to school at age 6. No helmet, no parent accompanying. So did all my friends. Later, I had shitty jobs in far flung industrial areas. All had proper bike lanes. The list goes on. Remember though, as the v…

May I recommend "Het recht van de snelste" to you? I read it a few weeks ago and it was mind blowing to learn the things we take for granted, and how they came to be, when it comes to public space and transport. Unexpected gem of a book and a delight to read.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#19

Post by loriverkutya »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #7
tnolet wrote: post #3

I remember seeing this video some years ago and, as a Dutchman, was astounded how much I learned about the Dutch way of treating cyclists. It just seems so obvious and normal when you grow up in it. I started biking to school at age 6. No helmet, no parent accompanying. So did all my friends. Later, I had shitty jobs in far flung industrial areas. All had proper bike lanes. The list goes on. Remember though, as the v…

Reading this comment, this is also the first time I realize that this is not normal. It is unusual globally for six year olds to cycle to school?

Nope, in the US you go to jail https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrest...

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#20

Post by DrBazza »

armada651 wrote: post #9
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is truly unsafe to take a bicycle in the U.K.?

As a Dutch person who lived in the UK for a year, yes. Bicycle lanes are nearly non-existent outside of London and the boroughs seem to be hostile to the idea in general. The few bicycle lanes you do find often end as abruptly as they start, there's nothing connecting them and there are no bicycle crossings when you meet a road. However if you get a mountain bike and stick to the dirt roads along the rivers and hills…

> Yes, any Dutch expat you meet is silently judging your country on the safety of its cycling infrastructure.

And so you should. The UK's cycling infrastructure is embarrassingly bad.

An example. Local to me, recently, the government spent over £100m on a new road junction, to replace an old one. One of the main reasons that they had to build a new junction was that they claimed they could not remove traffic lights from the roundabout to improve traffic because pedestrians and cyclists both crossed the junction at 'street level'. A local cycle organization submitted a proposal with modelling (I can't find the link atm.), that showed that the desired increase in capacity could be achieved by adding bridges for pedestrians and cyclists, removing traffic lights, and altering the road layout.

And save about £90m.

Needlessly to say, the junction was built. I have no idea whether their proposal was considered, or not, unless I submit a freedom of information request to the UK government.

Regardless, the bridges should have been built anyway, because the junction is between two suburbs.

The new junction did get a new cyclist/pedestrian bridge to replace the old one. Except it's about 1km further away from the suburbs that the previous junction, so adding 2km to bike journeys.

Post reply on HN