What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design? • Hacker News Board

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#51

Post by erik_seaberg » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 11:28 AM UTC

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #17

mrsuprawsm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the UK, it would be very abnormal to either let your 6 year old child cycle to school, or to let them walk unaccompanied. Let alone both. Only when children reach about 11 would it be normal to allow them to travel unaccompanied.

*laughs in My First Errand : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eMZp8KsZ5k It's fairly normal in Japan to let five year olds travel alone by train, apparently. I have to say I noticed before that the Anglo-Saxon often considers the minor to be seemingly mentally deficient and incapable of making the most basic choices and having the most basic responsibilities. It's too much of a culture of “Children are incapable; adu…

It’s not “children can’t navigate” so much as “children can’t fend off abduction by sexual abusers.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_danger

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#52

Post by mytailorisrich » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 11:35 AM UTC

throwaway2245 wrote: post #32

mytailorisrich wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A problem in the UK is that in general we are hostile to build roads and certainly wide roads. So roads are as narrow as possible and congested, which in itself is not great for bikes but also makes bike lanes near impossible. And when a bike lane is built (i.e. painted on the road or pavement) it is usually also very narrow and interferes with traffic. Obviously this is difficult to change for existing roads, but we…

Do you think the centre of Amsterdam has wide roads? It does not.

That's great but I fail to see the relation with my comment.

I'm not talking about very central roads that can be mostly restricted to pedestrians, or city areas with narrow streets but also little to no traffic. I'm talking about roads in general. Amsterdam has many roads that look hugely wide for British standards.

Example: hhttps://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7524584,-1.2749531,3a,75y,...

This is one of the main roads into Oxford. Note the "cycle lane"... Still, that road is not too bad because it has an exceptionally wide pavement on one side.

It's usually more like this: (Henley on Thames, where Boris Johnson used to be MP, again one of the main accesses to the town) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5375008,-0.8998416,3a,75y,...

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#53

Post by Blikkentrekker » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 11:58 AM UTC

erik_seaberg wrote: post #51

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*laughs in My First Errand : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eMZp8KsZ5k It's fairly normal in Japan to let five year olds travel alone by train, apparently. I have to say I noticed before that the Anglo-Saxon often considers the minor to be seemingly mentally deficient and incapable of making the most basic choices and having the most basic responsibilities. It's too much of a culture of “Children are incapable; adu…

It’s not “children can’t navigate” so much as “children can’t fend off abduction by sexual abusers.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_danger

Ah yes, that. That is most definitely also a problem here.

I was very much warned by my parent not to go with strangers in a manner I later realized was completely counter effective as it implied that there was an easy way to tell which strangers were dangerous and which weren't.

I since learned that my parent would be wiser to warn me for relatives and teachers and strangers, if he were truly so concerned for my safety rather than assuaging his moral panics.

It is still however nonsensical and the chance of ill happening is considerably smaller than letting a relative babysit me.

In fact, one could argue that children are safer when they be left alone, than when they be properly babysat, because the babysitter is one of the ones who would be most likely to hurt them.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#54

Post by wooger » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:03 PM UTC

47r6dudh wrote: post #11

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #2

I must say that I find it rather odd that apparently it is “phænomenal” that 25% of all trips are by bike. What other means of transportation would one use for short distances where a bike is simply faster than a car due to ease of parking? Personally, however, I use a skateboard fitted with 100 mm all terrain wheels for even greater ease of parking.

Personally I'd escooter everywhere if my own city hadn't hobbled them thoroughly (both dockless and personal). I respect the cycling community but it's just too much work for me and I imagine many similarly unambitious people.

hobbled how?

For me, the form factor of a battery powered lazy person's vehicle is not yet perfected, and they should be more akin to a sit-down vespa scooter than the current scooters.

The centre of mass is just too high, the wheels too small.

They should also be restricted to roads - as a cyclist I've never seen one ridden safely in a bike path, and I don't think standing allows for quick enough braking for the average user.

Not to mention that in my country, outside of a few city specific rental deals, all scooters are illegal for use in public - so literally everyone on one is a dangerous criminal.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#55

Post by phicoh » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:09 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #25

armada651 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Dutch person who lived in the UK for a year, yes. Bicycle lanes are nearly non-existent outside of London and the boroughs seem to be hostile to the idea in general. The few bicycle lanes you do find often end as abruptly as they start, there's nothing connecting them and there are no bicycle crossings when you meet a road. However if you get a mountain bike and stick to the dirt roads along the rivers and hills…

A problem in the UK is that in general we are hostile to build roads and certainly wide roads. So roads are as narrow as possible and congested, which in itself is not great for bikes but also makes bike lanes near impossible. And when a bike lane is built (i.e. painted on the road or pavement) it is usually also very narrow and interferes with traffic. Obviously this is difficult to change for existing roads, but we…

One thing that is not often done, is to have bikes on a smaller parallel road. Often there is an attempt to cram everything on one big road, when there are perfectly fine residential roads next to the big road that just need connecting.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#56

Post by phicoh » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:13 PM UTC

DrBazza wrote: post #14

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is truly unsafe to take a bicycle in the U.K.?

It depends, but yes. There are a lot of deaths each year, and the law is not in favour of the cyclist either. In fact, it gets worse: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45154708 Stay away from the cities, and it's generally safer, but at the same time you'll find cars doing 60 mph on single carriageway roads (the national speed limit), which can also be marked as a national cycle route. If you cycle somewhere where cars d…

The side road can be restructured to give bikes priority. And put some good speedbumps on the side road to give cars a hint that they need to pay attention.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#57

Post by Muximize » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:14 PM UTC

markvdb wrote: post #36

DrBazza wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, any Dutch expat you meet is silently judging your country on the safety of its cycling infrastructure. And so you should. The UK's cycling infrastructure is embarrassingly bad. An example. Local to me, recently, the government spent over £100m on a new road junction, to replace an old one. One of the main reasons that they had to build a new junction was that they claimed they could not remove traffic lights f…

Actually, bicycle tunnels - with a limited slope of course, like all other bicycle infrastructure - are recommended over bicycle bridges. These are more comfortable for cyclists. Gravity helps one cycle down, and the kinetic energy gained helps cyclists on the way up in the second half of the tunnel.

Also they can be smaller and cheaper to build. Because they only carry bicycles and pedestrians, a height clearance of about 2.5 meters is enough, while a bridge needs around 5 meters to let cargo trucks pass underneath. This also results in much shorter ramps.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#58

Post by throwaway2245 » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 1:10 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #52

throwaway2245 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think the centre of Amsterdam has wide roads? It does not.

That's great but I fail to see the relation with my comment. I'm not talking about very central roads that can be mostly restricted to pedestrians, or city areas with narrow streets but also little to no traffic. I'm talking about roads in general. Amsterdam has many roads that look hugely wide for British standards. Example: h https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7524584,-1.2749531,3a,75y,... This is one of the main ro…

1. Botley Road - there is plenty of space for a two-way cycle path in the photo you show. Just a couple of photos down, you can see the road fits three vehicles abreast: in other words, it would comfortably fit two road lanes and a double cycle lane, if only that had been or was constructed. There are much trickier problems solved in the Netherlands.

2. Henley Bridge - Overall, Henley could be ideal for cycling around. OK, one of the main routes into the town crosses a river. Yet, if this was in the Netherlands, they would simply have built a parallel cycle bridge at some point in the last 20 years. Or, if there still wasn't one, they'd build one now.

Here you go, Rijswijk swingbrug, opened 2014 (watch the video for relevant commentary): https://www.oozo.nl/video/rijswijk/84608/rijswijk-cycle-brid...

Or Delft's Gelatinebrug, scheduled to open in 2023: https://www.delft.nl/wonen/bouwen/bouwprojecten-de-stad/schi...

There are plenty of other examples.

Amsterdam's narrow roads have little to no traffic only because of political decisions that cars are not the only form of transport that need to be considered. You can see in archive footage that this wasn't always the case.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#59

Post by mytailorisrich » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

throwaway2245 wrote: post #58

mytailorisrich wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great but I fail to see the relation with my comment. I'm not talking about very central roads that can be mostly restricted to pedestrians, or city areas with narrow streets but also little to no traffic. I'm talking about roads in general. Amsterdam has many roads that look hugely wide for British standards. Example: h https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7524584,-1.2749531,3a,75y,... This is one of the main ro…

1. Botley Road - there is plenty of space for a two-way cycle path in the photo you show. Just a couple of photos down, you can see the road fits three vehicles abreast: in other words, it would comfortably fit two road lanes and a double cycle lane, if only that had been or was constructed. There are much trickier problems solved in the Netherlands. 2. Henley Bridge - Overall, Henley could be ideal for cycling aroun…

Not sure what you're trying to argue about at this point.

I'm stating facts here: UK roads tend to be very narrow to the point that it is difficult/impossible to just add cycle lanes, and even new roads or development do not include space for cycle lanes (when they should).

You show me examples in the Netherlands where they have built or are building new infrastructures where cycle lanes are accounted for. Well, yes exactly what I'm saying is not the case in the UK and often it is not even doable (it's not only a matter of building a new bridge if the access roads don't have the space, either...)

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#60

Post by throwaway2245 » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #59

throwaway2245 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Botley Road - there is plenty of space for a two-way cycle path in the photo you show. Just a couple of photos down, you can see the road fits three vehicles abreast: in other words, it would comfortably fit two road lanes and a double cycle lane, if only that had been or was constructed. There are much trickier problems solved in the Netherlands. 2. Henley Bridge - Overall, Henley could be ideal for cycling aroun…

Not sure what you're trying to argue about at this point. I'm stating facts here: UK roads tend to be very narrow to the point that it is difficult/impossible to just add cycle lanes, and even new roads or development do not include space for cycle lanes (when they should). You show me examples in the Netherlands where they have built or are building new infrastructures where cycle lanes are accounted for. Well, yes…

> You show me examples in the Netherlands where they have built or are building new infrastructures where cycle lanes are accounted for.

No, I'm showing you extremely old infrastructure (Delft: founded 1246, Rijswijk: pre-historic) that have invested in modern solutions for cycling.

The towns I have picked that are almost exact equivalents for Henley here, except that Henley has not bothered.

[For what it's worth, I agree there is no point in starting out by constructing a cycle lane from the middle of nowhere into a town with no cycle provision - but the UK is 5 decades behind in this aspect, and continuing to fall further behind]