Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

youtube.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 70 posts

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#21

Post by deugtniet »

Great to see Groningen represented so much in this video. I think about 50% of all traffic movements are by bike in this city. This includes walking, so IMO it's pretty special.

The urban planning in this town has been the product of decades of bike and pedestrian friendly planning. Making the city really nice to live in.

It probably takes decades to convert a car centric city like Seattle into something like Groningen. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't strive for it. It makes a city much more friendly to live in, makes the population healthier and is more sustainable on the environment.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#22

Post by frederikvs »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #2

I must say that I find it rather odd that apparently it is “phænomenal” that 25% of all trips are by bike. What other means of transportation would one use for short distances where a bike is simply faster than a car due to ease of parking? Personally, however, I use a skateboard fitted with 100 mm all terrain wheels for even greater ease of parking.

Do take into account that there are places where infrastructure is designed primarily around cars. This means a.o. that wherever you want to go, there'll be pretty good parking really close by. Combine that with a lack of proper bike infrastructure. No bike racks anywhere in sight, so you have to dump your bike on the pavement, hoping nobody will give it a shove because it's in their way. No bike lanes, or if there are, they have angles and corners that are not realistic to take on a bike. Corners that have you swerving into the opposite lane if you take them at anything above 15 km/h.

In those situations taking the car for short distances becomes the convenient, fast and safe thing to do.

P.S. from your name I suspect you're Dutch. In that case you don't even have to go far to find that sort of situation. I live in Belgium, which is generally considered to be a rather bike friendly country. I beg to differ. Everything I describe above applies, at least in a region of a few kilometers around my house. I can only assume it also applies elsewhere in Belgium.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#23

Post by Zenka »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #7
tnolet wrote: post #3

I remember seeing this video some years ago and, as a Dutchman, was astounded how much I learned about the Dutch way of treating cyclists. It just seems so obvious and normal when you grow up in it. I started biking to school at age 6. No helmet, no parent accompanying. So did all my friends. Later, I had shitty jobs in far flung industrial areas. All had proper bike lanes. The list goes on. Remember though, as the v…

Reading this comment, this is also the first time I realize that this is not normal. It is unusual globally for six year olds to cycle to school?

In the Netherlands you learn the traffic rules (at school) when you're 10/11 years old. There is a little exam even. It's normal children start cycling unattended from that point. However, children have been cycling attended since... when they are big enough to operate a bike that goes fast enough to do so (so say, from 5 years old.) Ergo they probably already know, in practice, how to operate safely in traffic.

When my parents caught me cycling home unattended during the longer school lunch breaks, and I confessed I've been doing that for most of the school year, they were like: "oh. Guess you know how to do that safely then. Carry on." I think I was 9 at that point. (It was a very safe route, which is common for Dutch home-primary school situations.)

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#24

Post by spiderfarmer »

renewiltord wrote: post #16
spiderfarmer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would an average American care if we are proud of our infrastructure or not? I think it has a lot more to do with Americans not paying enough taxes to make this worth considering.

Inexplicably it matters a lot because people behave to only buy those things. It's why you get CA HSR (a project that's already pie in the sky) reporting that they'll use a signaling system like nothing else in the world. How about just doing something that's like everything else in the world? Doesn't sell. NIH syndrome is America. But that's okay, that's why startups happen here more often.

America's misplaced pride might get in the way of some things, sure. But that's just dancing around the root cause: most Americans value low taxes above good infrastructure

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#25

Post by mytailorisrich »

armada651 wrote: post #9
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is truly unsafe to take a bicycle in the U.K.?

As a Dutch person who lived in the UK for a year, yes. Bicycle lanes are nearly non-existent outside of London and the boroughs seem to be hostile to the idea in general. The few bicycle lanes you do find often end as abruptly as they start, there's nothing connecting them and there are no bicycle crossings when you meet a road. However if you get a mountain bike and stick to the dirt roads along the rivers and hills…

A problem in the UK is that in general we are hostile to build roads and certainly wide roads.

So roads are as narrow as possible and congested, which in itself is not great for bikes but also makes bike lanes near impossible. And when a bike lane is built (i.e. painted on the road or pavement) it is usually also very narrow and interferes with traffic.

Obviously this is difficult to change for existing roads, but we could at least make sure that new roads are wide enough, but this is not the case.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#26

Post by Blikkentrekker »

loriverkutya wrote: post #19
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading this comment, this is also the first time I realize that this is not normal. It is unusual globally for six year olds to cycle to school?

Nope, in the US you go to jail https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrest...

I find it soothly bizarre.

How do they attend school? they are driven to it?

I said this in another comment, but I find Anglo-Saxon culture to unduly assume that children are completely incompetent.

https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/21/living/mom-arrested-left-...

At least there is a debate here. I was left alone to play unsupervised at ages around four or five to no ill effect.

What exactly do they believe could happen? Assume I somehow be hurt: I would cry; bystanders would be drawn near over the noise; they would ask me what was wrong; and I would receive medical attention if need be, and even if I would be driven to a hospital, I would easily be able to tell them my name and address and thus my parent would easily be contacted as to what had transpired — this all in the most unlikely event that I would hurt myself from playing on a playground designed for children.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#27

Post by [deleted] »

Zenka wrote: post #23
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading this comment, this is also the first time I realize that this is not normal. It is unusual globally for six year olds to cycle to school?

In the Netherlands you learn the traffic rules (at school) when you're 10/11 years old. There is a little exam even. It's normal children start cycling unattended from that point. However, children have been cycling attended since... when they are big enough to operate a bike that goes fast enough to do so (so say, from 5 years old.) Ergo they probably already know, in practice, how to operate safely in traffic. When…

[deleted]

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#28

Post by barrkel »

mrsuprawsm wrote: post #15
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading this comment, this is also the first time I realize that this is not normal. It is unusual globally for six year olds to cycle to school?

At least in the UK, it would be very abnormal to either let your 6 year old child cycle to school, or to let them walk unaccompanied. Let alone both. Only when children reach about 11 would it be normal to allow them to travel unaccompanied.

When I was a kid in Ireland in the 80s, we'd walk to the village school unaccompanied. A five or ten minute walk at most, kids from the age of 6 at least, though the fact that all the kids are going means the roads weren't exactly empty of kids going to the same school.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#29

Post by Thlom »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #7
tnolet wrote: post #3

I remember seeing this video some years ago and, as a Dutchman, was astounded how much I learned about the Dutch way of treating cyclists. It just seems so obvious and normal when you grow up in it. I started biking to school at age 6. No helmet, no parent accompanying. So did all my friends. Later, I had shitty jobs in far flung industrial areas. All had proper bike lanes. The list goes on. Remember though, as the v…

Reading this comment, this is also the first time I realize that this is not normal. It is unusual globally for six year olds to cycle to school?

My daughter cycled or walked to school since she was around 7, but a lot of children are driven to school by their parents. So many actually that the school had to construct a drop-off zone. I'm not entirely sure when it started or why, but when I went to the same school 20+ years ago it was not a thing. Everyone walked or cycled to school (or used a kick sled the few days of winter when that was possible) from their first day. I know they have the same problem at most schools in the country, which is Norway BTW.

Re: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

#30

Post by Someone »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #26
loriverkutya wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, in the US you go to jail https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrest...

I find it soothly bizarre. How do they attend school? they are driven to it? I said this in another comment, but I find Anglo-Saxon culture to unduly assume that children are completely incompetent. https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/21/living/mom-arrested-left-... At least there is a debate here. I was left alone to play unsupervised at ages around four or five to no ill effect. What exactly do they believe could happe…

> How do they attend school? they are driven to it?

Yes. An extreme example: https://mobile.twitter.com/fietsprofessor/status/12757189152...

Post reply on HN