Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support • Hacker News Board

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#931

Post by Closi » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:23 AM UTC

munificent wrote: post #800

Closi wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a specious argument on its face. The First Amendment does not say that private companies are obligated to spend money broadcasting someone else's speech. Hosting and serving isn't free and any private company has the freedom to decide what not to host. I'm in the UK, but the difference is that right now, these private companies control communication. I'm not allowed outside my house and I live alone. I'm no…

> these private companies control communication. I think verbs are important. Another way to say this is that these companies enable or provide communication. Imagine that COVID-19 had hit in the 80s before we had all of this. It would have been miserable, isolating, tragic. But would it make sense to blame the tech companies we have now for not existing then? Would it have been someone's fault ? > All my communicati…

“Control communication” is intentional - Content is scanned to understand intent, promoted/demoted based on an invisible algorithm, and your communication can be labelled or shut down if you have a dissenting opinion. In-between your conversation political adverts are inserted, specifically tailored to your demographic data and personality profile (and rather than encouraging you to vote for the party, they are actually designed to disenfranchise you and make you not vote for anyone).

This isn’t a future dystopia - this all already happens on Facebook. And that’s why this involves a level of control over being a neutral communication channel.

> Another way to frame that is just to be thankful that those companies are there to enable that communication.

Yes be thankful to mega corp. mega corp good. Mega corp has our interests at its heart.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#932

Post by delecti » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:25 AM UTC

mmmmmbop wrote: post #849

cactus2093 wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are the best mitigations here, both technical and social? Vocally side with the popular issues, or try to stay completely out of them, to try to avoid becoming a target (e.g., social media presence)? For now, don't attempt to overturn a fair democratic election and install an illegitimate government. Seems like a pretty easy thing to stay clear of. I get the concern you're expressing, but not everything is a s…

> For now, don't attempt to overturn a fair democratic election and install an illegitimate government. I honestly have no political axe to grind here, but I distinctly remember how 4 years ago it was a legitimate talking point on the losing side that 'faithless electors' (or 'Hamilton electors') should step up to deny Trump the presidency ([1], [2]). Michael Moore offered to pay the resulting fines for any Republica…

That's a good point, but I think it actually services to show just how bad this situation was. It's not a stretch to say that faithless electors are a "feature" of the electoral college. One of the stated reasons behind choosing electors rather than voting directly is that the electors could exercise their own discretion in the choice. I agree that it's unscrupulous to attempt to coax electors like that, but it's at least within the bounds of the framework of presidential elections.

This was a crowd of thousands of people, many armed, attempting to interfere with the actual process of counting the votes of those electors. More than a couple members of the crowd had zip ties, which can only be reasonably explained as hostage taking paraphernalia. A literal gallows was erected, and members of the crowd were chanting for violence against Pence and Pelosi (the next two after Trump in the order of succession). A couple IEDs were found on the premise. A police officer was beaten to death. If security hadn't managed to evacuate congress and the VP before the crowd got to them, it seems likely that there would have been deaths among them.

Treating those two things as equivalent is absurd.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#933

Post by Closi » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:26 AM UTC

mmmmmbop wrote: post #811

cycop wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The platform being used for organizing potential mass murder of targeted groups. If the screenshots are correct of what I have seen then AWS had no choice. They would have been liable if something really bad happened and was made aware of this before it happened. Parler has no monitoring of this activity and that is why everyone shut them down once it was exposed.

Note that in the past AWS has been more than open to hosting platforms organizing potential mass murder of targeted groups, to the point of issuing a lawsuit after a competitor was chosen to host the platform. [1] [1] https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/amaz...

I look forward to AWS removing itself from this lawsuit now it has worked out it is fully anti-violence.

Surely it’s ethics aren’t just swayed by money and political pressure?!

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#934

Post by criddell » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:27 AM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #859

cactus2093 wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are the best mitigations here, both technical and social? Vocally side with the popular issues, or try to stay completely out of them, to try to avoid becoming a target (e.g., social media presence)? For now, don't attempt to overturn a fair democratic election and install an illegitimate government. Seems like a pretty easy thing to stay clear of. I get the concern you're expressing, but not everything is a s…

> For now, don't attempt to overturn a fair democratic election and install an illegitimate government. Step back for a moment and ask yourself honestly: do you really believe, in your heart of hearts, that there was even the slightest, faintest, remotest chance of the dude in the viking outfit overthrowing the US government? It was a violent protest that got way out of hand, absolutely. There was never even the slig…

> There was never even the slightest chance of the government being overthrown though.

That doesn't really matter, does it? Isn't it like criminal conspiracy where all that really matters is for at least two people to plan a crime? AFAIK it doesn't matter if the plan is bad, there just needs to be a plan.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#935

Post by chmod600 » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:31 AM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #915

chmod600 wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the Jan 6 insurrection was OK, or even close. My point is that the tools for organizing an insurrection are being removed, and that's at least a little scary. It's like fitting everyone with a shock collar and saying it will only be used against insurrectionists. The government will be a lot less worried about resistance, and the definition of "insurrectionist" is likely to move over time. It just doesn…

> My point is that the tools for organizing an insurrection are being removed, and that's at least a little scary. Don’t think this is even vaguely true. We know that one of the primary tools of activists (or insurrectionists / terrorists depending on your point of view) in other countries are WhatsApp groups, and other encrypted chat platforms. If one is organising a serious insurrection, then I believe one does not…

We can theorize and rationalize all day. But I just get a feeling this is something we will look back on as a red flag that warned us of a bad outcome.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#936

Post by obviouslynotme » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:31 AM UTC

ctvo wrote: post #841

obviouslynotme wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If AWS is dropping you, then Facebook, Twitter, and Google probably already have. Stripe, Cloudflare, and Paypal are probably doing the same. If you try to continue, Visa, MasterCard, and your ISP will shut you down next. This is the world we live in now. You can be removed from commerce by a unanimous decision that you will be told never happened. I am just glad I can shut people down hard now when they say, "If you…

What unfortunate circumstances we find ourselves in when the cost of doing business with a company associated with white supremacists, insurrectionists, and murderers outweighs the benefits so much that other private businesses won't sell them things. Everyone is entitled to force themselves on Apple, Google, Amazon, Twilio, Stripe, et al., right? I find a depressing majority of the people screaming censorship at the…

If just Apple suspended them for a clearly identified infringement of codified policy and then gave them steps to correct it, I wouldn't care nearly as much as multiple sectors of industry banning one company within hours of each other. It's the coordination that is terrifying. When a group of powerful people says, "You have to let me do crazy thing, or the boogieman wins," you must forgive me for having doubts. I have heard that too many times to count.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#937

Post by rootusrootus » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:35 AM UTC

FFRefresh wrote: post #904

rootusrootus wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who decides if the democratic election was fair? The several states, of which all 50 had certified their votes well in advance of January 6th. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the votes being counted were even cast in public.

Just as an example, was the 2016 election 'fair' in your eyes? There were claims that Russians hacked the election, voting machine issues, voter fraud and suppression. Democratic leaders objected to the legitimacy of the election results. There were even protestors who interrupted the electoral vote counting [1]. Did the big tech companies miss a chance to censor those peddling theories of an unfair election in 2016?…

> Just as an example, was the 2016 election 'fair' in your eyes?

Yes, of course. I wasn't happy about it, but I was aghast that so many people voted for a con man, not convinced that it couldn't possibly be true that more people (in the right places, at least) wanted him than the second-worst political candidate I've ever seen run for President.

Also, by the time the certification comes around, the actual voters, all 538 of them, have publicly voted, so not only did I think the election was fair, but by then I knew it was 100% legal.

IMO big tech doesn't really do much censoring until pushed into a corner, now or in the past; they're more about the money than the politics. The Russians (along with a few other players, no doubt) absolutely fuck with our elections, but they do it the old fashioned way -- by spreading propaganda on social media and convincing American citizens to believe in conspiracy theories, and turn against their fellow citizens, etc.

FWIW, no Democrats stormed the Capitol in 2017. The losing candidate conceded, and relatively quickly at that. After losing by a lower margin than Trump in 2020, while beating him by millions of votes nationwide.

There isn't really a good way to spin it. Trump supporters storming the Capitol is bad, but it's actually a fairly distant second place to what the sitting President is doing.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#938

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:36 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #721

cactus2093 wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are the best mitigations here, both technical and social? Vocally side with the popular issues, or try to stay completely out of them, to try to avoid becoming a target (e.g., social media presence)? For now, don't attempt to overturn a fair democratic election and install an illegitimate government. Seems like a pretty easy thing to stay clear of. I get the concern you're expressing, but not everything is a s…

It sounds very reasonable up until attempting to identify what, objectively, is the bar to set business policy. Twitter literally claims that "To all of those who have asked, I will not be going to the Inauguration on January 20th." was the straw that broke the camels back [0]. That isn't an objective bar. Context which "everyone knows" is a political question - a highly political question. If AWS happens to have a s…

[deleted]

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#939

Post by sn_master » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:37 AM UTC

jounker wrote: post #657

nautilus12 wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is that Parler breaking the law or its users??

Let’s be honest about this. Parler exists to host right extremists who are tired of being moderated and fact checked by twitter and facebook.

how about all those who looted, burnt cities and rioted. that wasn't a double standard to keep them on the platforms?

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#940

Post by lolc » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:37 AM UTC

plutonorm wrote: post #467

epistasis wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If these companies are "shutting you down" for your speech, it's the same sort of speech that would have gotten you shut down in the public square. Have they shut down text messaging, phone calls, group messaging, all the encrypted messaging apps? Do the tech companies control postal mail, letters to the editor, and printing presses? Of course not. You are looking for others to give you a platform to reach a wide aud…

All well and good. But say for instance you lived in nazi Germany, would you have the right to protest? Would you have the right to say things that are outside of the overton window? You would not have the right, and your opinions would be spat upon. And yet they would be true and right for you. In your mind you would have every right to express yourself and undermine the government outside of democratic means. The p…

Please, spare us the accusations of arrogance. If you think our interpretations are dubious, tell us why!