Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support • Hacker News Board

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#391

Post by mgkimsal » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

Closi wrote: post #357

munificent wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hear a lot of people saying this is just another example of the left trying to shut down free speech This is a specious argument on its face. The First Amendment does not say that private companies are obligated to spend money broadcasting someone else's speech. Hosting and serving isn't free and any private company has the freedom to decide what not to host. If an author's content is so toxic that advertisers wo…

> This is a specious argument on its face. The First Amendment does not say that private companies are obligated to spend money broadcasting someone else's speech. Hosting and serving isn't free and any private company has the freedom to decide what not to host. I'm in the UK, but the difference is that right now, these private companies control communication. I'm not allowed outside my house and I live alone. I'm no…

> Are the phone companies allowed to lock me out if they don't like what I'm saying?

Possibly, although... you're paying for your phone service. You're not paying for parler, facebook, twitter, etc.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#392

Post by tmpz22 » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

6sup6 wrote: post #373

ookblah wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

seriously. millions of conservatives are still on twitter/fb with no censorship. some of the biggest conservative "celebs" built their audiences on twitter and benefit from the outrage machine. it's so hilariously out of touch and ironic to me that they are criticizing these actions uncensored and then trying to make slippery slope arguments or play the persecuted minority. what happened to parler is the exception, n…

They are in twitter as long as they don't step the line. Try to misgender someone in twitter to see what happens. The idea of misgender comes from a very specific political tribe in certain western countries.

Name a single fox pundit who properly uses gender pronouns. They're all still on twitter.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#393

Post by mgkimsal » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

sterlind wrote: post #382

mozillalives wrote: post #44

All I’m going to say is that I’m all for free speech and setting fair rules for everyone to play by (ie regulation), but looking at the examples provided in the buzzfeed articles this is beyond simple free speech. I hear a lot of people saying this is just another example of the left trying to shut down free speech but there are clear threats being made on the platform. If Parler doesn’t want to do any content regula…

Link to the Buzzfeed article: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/johnpaczkowski/amazon-p... Apparently Amazon sent them 98 examples of posts directly inciting violence, Parler replied with a proposal to manually moderate such posts with volunteers, and most of the posts Amazon gave as examples were still up (including some urging for systematic assassination or blowing up AWS data centers.)

Perhaps if Parler had suggested they use mTurk to moderate, AWS might have given them a bit longer? What position would that have put Amazon in, if the moderation was being done via their service, but the end result of the moderation was still 'unacceptable'?

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#394

Post by GrinningFool » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

Closi wrote: post #357

munificent wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hear a lot of people saying this is just another example of the left trying to shut down free speech This is a specious argument on its face. The First Amendment does not say that private companies are obligated to spend money broadcasting someone else's speech. Hosting and serving isn't free and any private company has the freedom to decide what not to host. If an author's content is so toxic that advertisers wo…

> This is a specious argument on its face. The First Amendment does not say that private companies are obligated to spend money broadcasting someone else's speech. Hosting and serving isn't free and any private company has the freedom to decide what not to host. I'm in the UK, but the difference is that right now, these private companies control communication. I'm not allowed outside my house and I live alone. I'm no…

> censored by a few giant private companies that self-police what can and can't be said

But you have to keep in mind the other side of that - the protections around freedom of speech were put in place at a time when it was inconceivable that a majority of people in the country had the ability to be seen and heard _by the majority of other people in the country_. In near real-time, anytime. And that they could do so in a way that meant often they did not have to accept any consequence for the wider-ranging effects of their words.

Separately I also have to wonder if the knowledge acquired as a result of that would have affected their framing. In particular the advances in psychology and group psychology, and in understanding how it's possible to use this instant mass communication to manipulate even people who are on guard against manipulation.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#395

Post by MichaelRazum » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

tmpz22 wrote: post #216

To all the HN users defending Parler by drawing false equivalencies to BLM, the NYTimes, Saudi Arabia, and China, without acknowledging the events of The last few months: shame on you. Parler and it’s moderator team , as well as Donald Trump, has supported COVID denial, the election fraud conspiracy, and Q conspiracy, for over a year. This was a concentrated effort to brain wash American conservatives to completely d…

Just one remark about your COVID denial president. He got the vaccine way faster then Europe. Especially Germany where the vaccine was developed as well. Not sure how many would be saved if Germany ordered in the same way.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#396

Post by Closi » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:59 PM UTC

zmb_ wrote: post #321

I'm struggling to try to understand what this means for the risks of running a business in the cloud going forward. It was not just AWS dropping them, but many of their other vendors dropped them too, essentially killing their business overnight. Granted, for this first case the bar was extremely high. You needed literal storming of the Capitol and a platform seemingly specifically targeted at those people for this t…

100% agree - but I think this can only be solved via legislation.

Amazon has too much market power if it can shut down another company at the push of a button for something that isn't illegal (even if it's distasteful).

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#397

Post by epistasis » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

Closi wrote: post #357

munificent wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hear a lot of people saying this is just another example of the left trying to shut down free speech This is a specious argument on its face. The First Amendment does not say that private companies are obligated to spend money broadcasting someone else's speech. Hosting and serving isn't free and any private company has the freedom to decide what not to host. If an author's content is so toxic that advertisers wo…

> This is a specious argument on its face. The First Amendment does not say that private companies are obligated to spend money broadcasting someone else's speech. Hosting and serving isn't free and any private company has the freedom to decide what not to host. I'm in the UK, but the difference is that right now, these private companies control communication. I'm not allowed outside my house and I live alone. I'm no…

If these companies are "shutting you down" for your speech, it's the same sort of speech that would have gotten you shut down in the public square.

Have they shut down text messaging, phone calls, group messaging, all the encrypted messaging apps?

Do the tech companies control postal mail, letters to the editor, and printing presses?

Of course not. You are looking for others to give you a platform to reach a wide audience. There are many. But no platform requires people to publish you. You have lost being able to yell in a public square, temporarily, due to public safety, but you haven't lost the ability to transmit speech that would have been acceptable in the public square.

So so so tired of these false equivalencies, and an unwillingness to engage with the type of speech that results in this. Normal, political speech is just fine. Incitement to violence, no.

Hell, AWS still hosts the publication that posted Bezos' dick pics! These shutdowns are not some sort of political censorship, these shutdowns are the natural result of speech that societies have determined not to be free.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#398

Post by 8note » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

Closi wrote: post #357

munificent wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hear a lot of people saying this is just another example of the left trying to shut down free speech This is a specious argument on its face. The First Amendment does not say that private companies are obligated to spend money broadcasting someone else's speech. Hosting and serving isn't free and any private company has the freedom to decide what not to host. If an author's content is so toxic that advertisers wo…

> This is a specious argument on its face. The First Amendment does not say that private companies are obligated to spend money broadcasting someone else's speech. Hosting and serving isn't free and any private company has the freedom to decide what not to host. I'm in the UK, but the difference is that right now, these private companies control communication. I'm not allowed outside my house and I live alone. I'm no…

You can send a letter in the mail, can't you?

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#399

Post by cactus2093 » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

zmb_ wrote: post #321

I'm struggling to try to understand what this means for the risks of running a business in the cloud going forward. It was not just AWS dropping them, but many of their other vendors dropped them too, essentially killing their business overnight. Granted, for this first case the bar was extremely high. You needed literal storming of the Capitol and a platform seemingly specifically targeted at those people for this t…

> What are the best mitigations here, both technical and social? Vocally side with the popular issues, or try to stay completely out of them, to try to avoid becoming a target (e.g., social media presence)?

For now, don't attempt to overturn a fair democratic election and install an illegitimate government. Seems like a pretty easy thing to stay clear of.

I get the concern you're expressing, but not everything is a slippery slope. This went so far beyond a "popular social issue of the day", as you admitted in your comment. IMO it's worth saving this outrage & concern for if and when something that is more genuinely a popular social issue causes AWS to take down sites. There were surely lots candidates for that earlier this year with a lot of the other protests that went on, were there any instances of sites taken down then? (I'm genuinely asking btw, I didn't hear of any but if there were then I think that is a much more appropriate place to start this conversation from. Certainly people have been fired from their jobs due to cancel culture but I don't know of anyone being shut off of all tech platforms).

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#400

Post by creatorbytes » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

narcissismo wrote: post #142

abarringer wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh com'n. As if twitter doesn't allow people to post stupid junk? Multiple accounts that posted "Kill all white women" "Today seems like a good day for another reminder that all republicans deserve to die" are still active along with plenty of other insane things. You can cherry pick bad stuff from any social media site.

It seems like you can see it all now, rather than having to cherry pick. https://cybernews.com/news/70tb-of-parler-users-messages-vid... I'd be interested in seeing the hate ratio between 70TB of that site's posts versus an equivalent volume of Twitter traffic.

But that puts the burden on who defines hate. Similar to the issue with banning “hate speech”. Where’s the line?

We know the extremes, but the extremes aren’t the problem.

“Basketball is stupid” - hate speech targeting a minority demographic, thereby racist.

I wish the above was hyperbole, but there’s a non-zero group size of people in nearby college communities that would agree.