Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support • Hacker News Board

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#471

Post by throwaway5752 » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 7:26 PM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #425

This is a weird case of private companies getting together and voluntarily enforcing the supremecy of the state. I'm sure it's happened before, but probably not in situations we'd like to emulate. Insurrection is bad, but the possibility of insurrection is good. When any possibility of insurrection is crushed, for everyone now and in the future (not just insurrectionists), that sounds like it won't end well for the p…

It is hard to separate the fact that they are distancing themselves from a fascist, white-supremacist platform that was instrumental in a near-overthrow of the US government. And even if you think that's okay, this wasn't insurrection in response to oppression, it was an insurrection to overthrow an uncontested democratic result. I guess Parler is so radioactive that Amazon would rather be sued than continue to business with them. Further, there are reports Amazon gave them weeks of warnings and were ignored. AWS has rules.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#472

Post by spamizbad » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

mozillalives wrote: post #44

All I’m going to say is that I’m all for free speech and setting fair rules for everyone to play by (ie regulation), but looking at the examples provided in the buzzfeed articles this is beyond simple free speech. I hear a lot of people saying this is just another example of the left trying to shut down free speech but there are clear threats being made on the platform. If Parler doesn’t want to do any content regula…

What's interesting here is it's not really "the left" trying to shut it down: it's more like "People who believe in the civic religion of the United States" vs people who do not.

A ruthlessly self-interested left would benefit tremendously from the successful assassination of Vice President Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi. It would be a galvanizing event that would ultimately turn most of the country against the Republican party. It would likely clear the way for younger, left-leaning Democratic leaders (AOC, Cori Bush), and it would eliminate a major contender for the 2024 presidential race. Biden would enter power with the same level of political capital as George W. Bush after 9/11.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#473

Post by ralmidani » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

SCOTUS Justice Robert Jackson:

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act."

Also Robert Jackson:

"The choice is not between order and liberty. It is between liberty with order and anarchy without either. There is danger that, if the court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact."

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#474

Post by emtel » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #436

emtel wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech and the First Amendment are not the same thing. Free speech is a moral principle/ideal that exists independently of the US Constitution. The First Amendment guarantees a certain form of free speech in the United States. Private-sector censorship / restriction of speech is not in violation of the First Amendment. However, it may still amount to a restriction on free speech.

Fair, but in this case we're talking about a US company hosting another US company's data, so I think talking about free speech in the context of the First Amendment is reasonable.

It's not unreasonable, but I think it's incomplete. We may be headed towards a world in which private companies exert a great deal of control over what an individual can say. Not only by controlling communication platforms, but also by withholding employment from people who say certain things.

I don't want to join the argument about whether that's good or bad, but I think it's a huge mistake to simply say "It's consistent with the 1st amendment, therefore it's OK." If we're going to let private corporations use their market power to police individual speech, we need to have a real debate about what that means.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#475

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

reddog wrote: post #320

andrewmutz wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Iraq war is a great example because it highlights how rare this is. You had to go back 15 years to find an example of the mainstream media misleading people on this scale. It can be true that both: - The NYT deserves a lot of blame for the lead up to the iraq war ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Miller#The_Iraq_War ) - Newspapers generally do a really good job of fact checking the articles they print

>You had to go back 15 years to find an example of the mainstream media misleading people on this scale. Have you forgotten 3 years of the MSN saying Trump's presidency was illegitament because he stole the election by coluding with the Russians?

I missed anyone on MSN(BC) saying his election was illegitimate. There were questions about it, for sure. There was the essentially incontrovertible fact that he won in the EC without winning the popular vote, which is an unfortunate feature of our system. That does lend a certain sense of "illegitimacy" but not in the sense of something illegal having happened, more a sense of "moral legitimacy". A few weeks after his election, the overwhelming majority of progressives accepted that Trump was the officially elected president of the USA. We didn't like it, but we accepted it.

The issues regarding Russian interference were not centered on collusion, but on ... well, interference (which some believe went so far as to include actual collusion).

Mueller's report and the Senate report did find conclusively that the Russians did interfere, and did so with the goal of getting Trump elected. Mueller said that they did not find evidence of active collaboration between the campaign and the Russians ... here's the current Wikipedia summary:

>did not find sufficient evidence that the campaign "coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities". Investigators ultimately had an incomplete picture of what happened due to communications that were encrypted, deleted, or not saved and due to testimony that was false, incomplete, or declined. However, the report states that Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election was illegal and occurred "in sweeping and systematic fashion" but was welcomed by the Trump campaign as it expected to benefit from such efforts

Again, I recall essentially nobody in any position of power (certainly not elected Senators) saying the Trump's election was illegitimate. People did say that his election was aided by Russian interference (Mueller and the Senate investigation state this clearly), and that it was/is unfortunate to have a president elected without winning the popular vote.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#476

Post by kingdomcome50 » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

readams wrote: post #383

tylerhou wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Picture instead private businesses who all refuse to do business with Jews. This is a false equivalency. Race, religion, etc. are protected classes. It's impossible for people to change their race, and our society has agreed that we shouldn't force people to change their religion. Political beliefs are not protected classes. When your political beliefs include inciting violence by spreading unfounded conspiracy the…

Protected classes were defined in the law only because we decided they should be. Nothing says it can't include more or fewer things as the winds of opinion blow in a different direction. A religion isn't really much different from other belief systems after all. This is a common error in reasoning by the way: looking to the way current law happens to be and inferring from that what the right thing to do is. For exam…

A religion is similar to politics only in that they are both beliefs. Your argument is essentially that any belief could/should be protected. I don't think you mean that, so I urge you to try to come up with a more coherent formulation.

I would start by exploring the differences between what it means to hold a religious belief vs a political one. Maybe start by comparing how each of the above has changed, or the associations thereof with their respective ideals over, say, the last 1000 years. Maybe then proceed to identify from where a religious belief manifests vs a political belief. Finally, you could look towards the kinds of answers of which each respective belief offers explanatory power (i.e. What kinds of questions does religion answer vs politics?). We could probably even take this a step further and look at the history of each as well no? Political leanings have existed at least as long as religious beliefs. At one time these were likely the same! So what is it about the history of politics and religion that has lead us to the the kinds of separation we have reached today?

I have confidence you can come up with many kinds of differences. Good luck!

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#477

Post by trident5000 » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

jorblumesea wrote: post #448

trident5000 wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of extremists on Twitter and Facebook. Thats where the double standard is. People organized on twitter when they stormed the white house and the pres went into a bunker as an example. Facebook is accused of much worse in foreign countries currently. The reason Parler was banned is because all these corporations are very aware they are under the anti-trust microscope. This was a favor to the new party…

While I absolutely agree with the idea that every social media has extremes, I completely disagree with the end conclusions. Other social media services do not actively shape the debate through intense political moderation. There's no "Post tsar" the validates the political health of things that people host. Meanwhile on Parler... https://twitter.com/donk_enby/status/1347939939120533506 https://twitter.com/donk_enby/…

Sounds like hyperbole to me. Again we can flip this to "twitter is a left wing extremist platform" quite easily by finding the right tweet snapshots and pointing to prior events. And nobody knows the exact algos or moderation mechanisms for any of the platforms, the screenshots you linked say essentially nothing even with whoever that person is narrating. Im not saying hes wrong, but I'm certainly not taking it at face value. On other platforms there are similar reward systems. Blue check-marks for instance, and shadow banning is obviously a thing.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#478

Post by mariopt » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

notabee wrote: post #442

Most providers also don't allow ISIS on their platforms. Another known terror-sponsoring organization. For a long time now. And yet I don't see people tying themselves into free speech knots over ISIS getting deplatformed. I wonder why that is?

You can't compare a group that kills thousands of people with a group that has it's own ideas. You could claim it is a dangerous one but you'll find many other accepted groups that would fall under the same category given the right perspective.

Freedom of speech is not about hearing the ideas you like but the ones you dislike.

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#479

Post by teddyh » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #425

This is a weird case of private companies getting together and voluntarily enforcing the supremecy of the state. I'm sure it's happened before, but probably not in situations we'd like to emulate. Insurrection is bad, but the possibility of insurrection is good. When any possibility of insurrection is crushed, for everyone now and in the future (not just insurrectionists), that sounds like it won't end well for the p…

“The only thing that keeps leaders in check is the knowledge the population can rise up against them. By eliminating the Bowman’s Wolves ability to string you up by your own intestines, you’ve removed them from a very important part of the political process.”

— Sam Starfall, Freefall, http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1600/fv01595.htm

Re: Parler drops offline after Amazon pulls support

#480

Post by SiliconMage » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #420

zmb_ wrote: post #321

I'm struggling to try to understand what this means for the risks of running a business in the cloud going forward. It was not just AWS dropping them, but many of their other vendors dropped them too, essentially killing their business overnight. Granted, for this first case the bar was extremely high. You needed literal storming of the Capitol and a platform seemingly specifically targeted at those people for this t…

It appears there is a business opportunity to (re)create infrastructure for use by companies/individuals that have been banned from the mainstream platforms. I'm sure such a platform would be despised by many in the mainstream, and most mainstream companies would not consider using them because customers would boycott them if they did. But for companies whose customers are primarily on the right, the cost/benefit cou…

The end result will probably be two separate frameworks distanced from each other where each side is free to babble away in their echo chambers as much as they want.