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Police found pickup truck full of bombs and guns near Capitol

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Re: Police found pickup truck full of bombs and guns near Capitol

#121

Post by newacct583 »

OminousWeapons wrote: post #117
newacct583 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see the distinction you're making, but... I know a bunch of gun owners too, and the overlap is very substantial. It's all the same people, really. Obviously not every gun owner is a right wing terrorist, but they all subscribe to the same magazines and subreddits and all imagine the same euphemisms about freedom and protection and self-determinism. > constantly demonizing all gun owners as bad people And see... thi…

How can I meet people half way when they have no interest in respecting me or meeting me half way? Many people view guns as inherently evil, view me as inherently evil for possessing them, and explicitly say they want to ban all firearms / there is no legitimate use case for firearms full stop. It's very difficult to take a moderate stance with such people when they are trying to shout me down and are demanding capit…

> Many people view guns as inherently evil

I don't. Can you meet me half way?

Re: Police found pickup truck full of bombs and guns near Capitol

#122

Post by OminousWeapons »

newacct583 wrote: post #121
OminousWeapons wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can I meet people half way when they have no interest in respecting me or meeting me half way? Many people view guns as inherently evil, view me as inherently evil for possessing them, and explicitly say they want to ban all firearms / there is no legitimate use case for firearms full stop. It's very difficult to take a moderate stance with such people when they are trying to shout me down and are demanding capit…

> Many people view guns as inherently evil I don't. Can you meet me half way?

Sure, I believe the following:

1. As I stated above, I believe there is a militant faction of gun owners who are doing the community and the nation a disservice. I do not agree with their views, do not support them, and believe they should be monitored.

2. As an owner, I believe we need to make the following changes to gun regulation:

* We need a universal regulatory floor consisting of background checks, licensing, and training for ownership of any class of firearm.

* We should probably have some sort of red flag rule set to allow seizure of firearms if there is strong evidence that you are conspiring to commit a crime or are unstable.

* We need to standardize on what constitutes reasonable concealed carry as right now the state reciprocity rules are ridiculous. I shouldn't need 4-5 licenses to be able to possess firearms across the US, let alone concealed carry.

* We need to shift to computerized record keeping at the ATF, and all transactions need to be reported to the ATF. This would allow ATF to perform data mining to go after people making large straw purchases for resale here or transport to Mexico. This is where most guns being used illegally are coming from. If guns supposedly owned by you start showing up at crime scenes, someone should be able to flag that trivially and start asking questions about it. If you are buying 10 new firearms every few weeks, that should be investigated. There are ways we could implement this which protect individual privacy.

* It should be illegal to bring guns to a protest, and open carry in most situations should be banned as it makes people less safe, including the owners.

Those are the changes that I believe would have a meaningful impact on gun related violence. I do not believe assault weapons bans, magazine size limits, removal of "assault features", or other such regulations are necessary or particularly helpful as they largely only inhibit individuals who are trying to use their gun in legal self defense. These types of weapons are also relatively rarely used in gun violence, with pistols and shotguns contributing overwhelming to gun related homicides in the US.

As for how you deal with the cultural issues among some owners, I have no idea how to tackle that other than to open reasonable dialog and expose them to additional moderate owners.

Re: Police found pickup truck full of bombs and guns near Capitol

#123

Post by Balgair »

krapp wrote: post #120
Balgair wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"God has a special provenance that protects idiots, drunkards, children, and the United States of America" -Otto von Bismark I keep returning to that quote in these days at it's so apt even hundreds of years later. The Capitol insurrection could have been sooo much worse. Only a handful of deaths resulted. That's incredulous for such an event. That a fire-bug didn't get in there and light the whole place up is incred…

Wait until after the inauguration, they've made it clear they're not at all done.

Very true, but the effects will be muted as compared to the 37th of December (because 2020 didn't stop), I feel. The leaders of the movements have been identified and are pretty isolated as compared to federal law enforcement. The incoming USAGs are more than ready to make names for themselves in the prosecution of the insurrection. Combined with plea deals that can help expose their networks, I think that armed insurrection in a mass scale is not going to be as threatening. However, McVeigh style attacks are still a very very serious threat, I think.

Re: Police found pickup truck full of bombs and guns near Capitol

#124

Post by hnlurker »

4ggr0 wrote: post #57
bbg24 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wonder if this is what makes lawmakers consider some sensible gun regulation... I can't comprehend why an average civilian would need license to keep and/or carry a firearm. None of the arguments seem to stack up, at least, from my perspective.

I can't comprehend why an average civilian would need a gun. None of the arguments seem to stack up, at least, from my perspective. Not trying to mock you, just seems like we have the same argument for our opposing views :)

Try being a 5' 100# woman walking home alone at night. Technology, in the form of a reliable and compact weapon, is the best way for her to bridge the very real divide of physical size and strength against her most likely attacker.

I know it's 2021 and it's sacrilege to even mention that men and women differ in very real and impactful ways, but.. there it is.

Re: Police found pickup truck full of bombs and guns near Capitol

#125

Post by DennisP »

dekhn wrote: post #102
GiorgioG wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You clearly don’t know anything about firearms. An “assault” rifle bullet/round (5.56mm/0.223) is smaller and less powerful than a typical hunting rifle (7.62mm/0.308) round. “Assault” rifles aren’t designed to blow your anyone’s leg off.

This sort of denying all the technology in assault weapons to maximize destruction. It's the kinetic energy, the design of the bullet, there's recoil mitigation, bullet cavitation, etc. They are weapons designed to reduce the amount of effort required to stop people, permanently. (I'm not a gun nut but I am a physics nerd, so i read up on how assault weapons differ from more conventional hunting weapons. Note that ma…

> the kinetic energy

Please explain how a cartridge with less powder ends up generating more kinetic energy. Alternatively, explain how it's worse to have less kinetic energy.

You can reference this visual comparison of rifle cartridges to see what I mean: https://1source.basspro.com/news-tips/hunting-information/74...

Assault rifles were designed to allow soldiers to carry more bullets. It started with the Germans in WWII, who found that with mechanized warfare, infantry engagements were at closer range so they didn't need big heavy cartridges anymore.

Note that the .30-06 is a hunting cartridge today but it was also used in the main American battle rifle in WWII, the Springfield 1903. There's also the .308 which is commonly used in hunting and also various military battle rifles and sniper rifles. No infantry soldier would claim either is less effective than the 5.56.

Re: Police found pickup truck full of bombs and guns near Capitol

#126

Post by BlueTemplar »

guerrilla wrote: post #60
BlueTemplar wrote: post #54

The most surprising thing to me is that despite guns on both sides there were only 4 deaths. I guess that either both the police did very well their jobs (after the fact) and/or the 'insurgents' (almost) only had their guns as symbols and/or there was a lot of luck involved.

Probably because there was only really one side...

While I first read this an exaggeration, it looks like at least some of the police forces might have been sympathetic to the rioters ?

Also, there's still no explanation as to why there wasn't a large, anti-riot police force defending the Capitol that day…

Re: Police found pickup truck full of bombs and guns near Capitol

#127

Post by grecy »

GiorgioG wrote: post #114
grecy wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a concealed carry permit in a state that allows open carry.... Nor would I draw my weapon without real fear for my life Does it make you sad or disappointed you feel the need to carry a gun in your regular life just to feel safe and secure in your society? I've lived ~20 years in Canad and ~20 in Australia. My sister has lived ~20 in Australia and ~20 in the UK. The idea we would ever, ever feel the need to…

> FWIW, I own a hunting rifle here in Canada (.30/06, Remmington 700) and I enjoy hunting very much. It's funny, I think hunting is pretty inhumane (though I understand the need to manage the population, etc.) I'm not an advocate for making it illegal, it's just not for me. That's how I feel how guns should be looked at. If you don't want to own/carry a gun, that's your business - but don't try to stop me from doing…

I understand what you're saying, but you didn't answer my question.

Are you disappointed or sad that you should need/want to carry a gun in your daily life?

Are you happy your kids will live like that?

I just... I just, feel like that's a really sad state of affairs, and it would be something I'd much rather work to get away from. I see it like having to build shelters for the homeless, or having safe injecting rooms - they're good stop-gap measures and help society, but the goal is to fix the problem so they aren't needed long-long term.

Re: Police found pickup truck full of bombs and guns near Capitol

#128

Post by therealdrag0 »

rocketpastsix wrote: post #66
aaron695 wrote: post #12

> Police found pickup truck full of bombs and guns near Capitol The media is just shameless with their lying. They were bottles full of fuel. Commonly called Molotov Cocktails by anyone who's watched an action movie. BLM also used Molotov Cocktails, can't remember them being called bombs, because that would be a lie I guess. Alabama Man Charged With Possession of Eleven Molotov Cocktails Found Near Protest at U.S. Ca…

>BLM also used Molotov Cocktails, can't remember them being called bombs, because that would be a lie I guess. Lets see some proof of this.

Lmgtfy: - https://nypost.com/2020/07/04/alleged-molotov-cocktail-tosse... - https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12596828/portland-protester-se...

Re: Police found pickup truck full of bombs and guns near Capitol

#129

Post by DennisP »

DennisP wrote: post #125
dekhn wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of denying all the technology in assault weapons to maximize destruction. It's the kinetic energy, the design of the bullet, there's recoil mitigation, bullet cavitation, etc. They are weapons designed to reduce the amount of effort required to stop people, permanently. (I'm not a gun nut but I am a physics nerd, so i read up on how assault weapons differ from more conventional hunting weapons. Note that ma…

> the kinetic energy Please explain how a cartridge with less powder ends up generating more kinetic energy. Alternatively, explain how it's worse to have less kinetic energy. You can reference this visual comparison of rifle cartridges to see what I mean: https://1source.basspro.com/news-tips/hunting-information/74... Assault rifles were designed to allow soldiers to carry more bullets. It started with the Germans i…

"better to have less kinetic energy" I mean :)

Re: Police found pickup truck full of bombs and guns near Capitol

#130

Post by 4ggr0 »

GiorgioG wrote: post #68
4ggr0 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't comprehend why an average civilian would need a gun. None of the arguments seem to stack up, at least, from my perspective. Not trying to mock you, just seems like we have the same argument for our opposing views :)

You might change your mind if you’ve ever had someone try to break into your home at 3am. Happened when I was a kid. Fortunately my father had a lowly 0.22 rifle. The sight of the rifle in my fathers’s hands was enough to convince them to leave. My father is as left-leaning as they come (and an Italian immigrant) but he knew even then that the police can’t always protect you.

Yeah, I hear about a lot of examples like yours. I have an air rifle laying around somewhere, maybe that could scare someone off :D

I was raised by the standards of "Talk or Run away", and I want to adhere to them. But I don't live in the US and in my country I don't have to be afraid to be home-invaded, especially not with guns.

I see that some people "need" guns, I just don't want that as a pacifist. To each their own I guess ;)

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