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Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

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Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#51

Post by calaphos »

avianlyric wrote: post #37
cjdell wrote: post #29

Am I naive in assuming that many grid stability issues could be fixed by mandating all electric heaters automatically cut off at, say below 49.9Hz? It is my understanding that modern home EV chargers have the capability to do this to some extent, but I'm not sure if it's actually utilised?

Most grids have a rapid response system like this. They’ll have contracts with very large power consumers (think big hydro pumps, metal smelters etc) that can afford to have their equipment power down without notice in exchange for energy rebates. Then when the frequency drops these consumers will automatically turn off their equipment to reduce power draw. The seeing such a huge drop like this is extremely unusual,…

Apparently first threshold for cutting of hydro storage pumps below 49.85 Hz was undercut very briefly. Immediately afterwards the frequency reaches that threshold again, so I assume those measurements were working as planned.

Below 49Hz larger consumers would be cut off in steps of ~10% of the network load. AFAIK this includes large industrial consumers who are legally required to have the equipment in place to allow for that.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#53

Post by gonzo41 »

epistasis wrote: post #31

Time to start deploying big batteries across the grid at substations. A shipping container here and there would work wonders.

I want to get rooftop solar and a battery pack for my house. But I really don't want to a lithium battery attached to my house. I feel like there'd be a good business in selling battery 'space' in a big fire proof box down the street that I could then offset my meter against. Wouldn't even need to be in my street if I could get the offset.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#54

Post by pmlnr »

Yet governments insist newbuilds to be on electric heating... I was saying this won't be nice for a long time.

Example: my house, a 1954 built semi-detached - the official average unit in England - has a single phase 100A main cutout.

Hob 32A, 2x sockets circuits 2x16A, 2x light circuits 2x6A, oven 16A. That's already 92A at total theoretical capacity.

If I was to add FIR panels, that's bare minimum +32A, plus water heating - let's play it down, +32A, car charger +32A again.

This means I'd need a 3 phase extension. If everyone in the area were to do this we'd literally burn down the system on day one.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#55

Post by epistasis »

cjdell wrote: post #29

Am I naive in assuming that many grid stability issues could be fixed by mandating all electric heaters automatically cut off at, say below 49.9Hz? It is my understanding that modern home EV chargers have the capability to do this to some extent, but I'm not sure if it's actually utilised?

The term in the industry for this is "demand response," and usually it's voluntary and customers should get paid for participating.

Typically it's just larger customers that can reduce demand on a very large scale. In the US there are a few startups that are aggravating residential customers into larger groups, so that each of thousands of households cuts consumption by a few hundred watts, so that the aggregate drop is big enough for the utility to care about. Utilities, at least in the US, have extremely poor capabilities for innovation and for customer relations, so that is why a startup is an intermediary.

Typically, the signal for this is not the grid frequency, however! Better to plan ahead by a bit before the frequency drops, and allow people to opt out as necessary.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#56

Post by xenocratus »

danielovichdk wrote: post #50

I like these stories because they make me remember that things like electricity and water are not free. Water and electricity should be a lot more expensive, then people would start to understand that having an Electric car, 10+ devices in the household, a washer, a drier, lights, tvs and all that shit is expensive for the lot. But people don't really care, as long as our things work and we are not bothered by anyone…

So you want people to use gas cars and gas-powered boilers to heat their home? Or should we make that more expensive as well so we can make sure more people spend more time with heating off in the winter?

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#57

Post by nottorp »

gruez wrote: post #47
k3liutZu wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High voltage fluctuations today. Instead of 220V we got down to ~165V. Internet outages on top (I assume some hardware failed since multiple counties were affected on the RDS network). Edit. Here's a power graphic: https://www.transelectrica.ro/widget/web/tel/sen-grafic/-/SE... Seems Romanias production fell under the consumption at around 15:30 Water fell at that time, so maybe some hydro was shut down? We did have…

>Instead of 220V we got down to ~165V. Are homes experiencing brownouts? Or is it only in the distribution system?

were. I think it's mostly fixed for residential by now. The news says the incident happened at 15:05 local time (12:05 gmt? 13:05? damn daylight savings) and power was restored to all affected by 16:45.

Industry may be still shut down, there was some chemical plant that had to perform an emergency shutdown which released some crap in the air. They say it's non toxic though.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#58

Post by Havoc »

brummm wrote: post #9

From this link [1] it looks like it's back to normal. [1] https://www.netzfrequenzmessung.de/aktuelles.htm#2021_01

These of things either recover fast or the entire grid collapses. There isn’t much in between.

That’s why this is so scary

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#59

Post by whalesalad »

johncessna wrote: post #5

My German is limited to introductory conversations and ordering food, so I'm not really sure what's going on with this case. It does, however, look like the warning signs were there. https://www.mobilityhouse.com/int_en/magazine/company/tmh-wo... https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/markets-by-sector/energy/...

Twitter has a translate tweet button.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#60

Post by tashbarg »

alexgmcm wrote: post #2

As someone who doesn't speak German and has only a cursory understanding of the electrical grid - how significant is this?

The grid was overloaded significantly, but not critically. For everybody concerned with the grid, this is a major event because the grid is usually extremely stable. For everybody else, it's not significant. Grid operating as designed.

This graph shows the frequency drop we encountered: https://www.netzfrequenzmessung.de/bilder/2020_01_08_Abschal...

The red line at 49Hz is when things actually get switched off for the first time (12.5% of load).

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