Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency) • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#21

Post by 0-_-0 » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 4:06 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #19

tosh wrote: post #3

> If I haven't miscalculated, then this waste means the #Netzfrequenz that there was a sudden drop in power of over 4.5GW. That would be a lot more than a power plant. So junction could get there. https://twitter.com/netz_frequenz/status/1347537615097049101...

At least 3 large power stations. But is that necessarily a loss of supply or could it be a spike in demand? The UK was famous for demand spikes when people turned on kettles during the break in popular soap opras or football games. Maybe a cold day tripped a bunch of houses to turn on their electric heating?

The drop in the graph seems to be very sudden

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#22

Post by gefh » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

foobarian wrote: post #17

OnACoffeeBreak wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, slowing frequency is an indicator of a heavily loaded grid. I don't have an appreciation how much the frequency can practically be off the nominal 50 Hz (in Europe) before it indicates grid failure.

This is fascinating to me. What is the mechanism by which this happens? The added load causes an average slow down across the population of actual spinning generator bits?

Yes, the generators literally have to push harder and slow down.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#23

Post by throwaway0a5e » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

jaywalk wrote: post #13

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or added a ton of load faster than it could ramp up

It could be that, too. But I'm at a loss trying to think of how that much load could be added so suddenly.

I didn't feel like reading a low effort anecdote about that one time someone tried to run their house off of some rooftop solar and a golf cart battery and all his ceiling fans slowed down and everything died when the fridge kicked on so I figured I'd bring load based frequency reduction into the discussion on my own terms.

I can't think of any practical way to use that much power all at once either. On a small country size grid with a lot of renewables that can't ramp quickly I could see some foundries pulling it off.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#24

Post by thatcherc » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

foobarian wrote: post #17

OnACoffeeBreak wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, slowing frequency is an indicator of a heavily loaded grid. I don't have an appreciation how much the frequency can practically be off the nominal 50 Hz (in Europe) before it indicates grid failure.

This is fascinating to me. What is the mechanism by which this happens? The added load causes an average slow down across the population of actual spinning generator bits?

That's exactly right. Extra electrical draw on the grid (or a loss of electrical production elsewhere) causes the turbines in power plants to physically spin slower due to increase load on each turbine.

An (imperfect) analogy would be if you and a friend were biking up a hill on a tandem bike. If a third person hopped on the handle bars (or your friend stopped pedaling) the bike's wheels would slow down, assuming you are putting a constant amount of power into the pedals.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#25

Post by k3liutZu » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

nottorp wrote: post #14

Romanian news are screaming about several counties (like 1/5 of RO) being blacked out and this being a problem at the interconnection with the neighboring power grids. From the little I know about power lines, events like this can cascade to half a continent.

High voltage fluctuations today.

Instead of 220V we got down to ~165V.

Internet outages on top (I assume some hardware failed since multiple counties were affected on the RDS network).

Edit.

Here's a power graphic: https://www.transelectrica.ro/widget/web/tel/sen-grafic/-/SE...

Seems Romanias production fell under the consumption at around 15:30

Water fell at that time, so maybe some hydro was shut down? We did have multiple floods reported yesterday.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#26

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

gefh wrote: post #22

foobarian wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fascinating to me. What is the mechanism by which this happens? The added load causes an average slow down across the population of actual spinning generator bits?

Yes, the generators literally have to push harder and slow down.

[deleted]

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#27

Post by davrosthedalek » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

jaywalk wrote: post #13

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or added a ton of load faster than it could ramp up

It could be that, too. But I'm at a loss trying to think of how that much load could be added so suddenly.

Maybe somebody connected woodpecker [1] to the European grid? But I guess even that does not need enough power.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duga_radar

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#28

Post by tosh » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #19

tosh wrote: post #3

> If I haven't miscalculated, then this waste means the #Netzfrequenz that there was a sudden drop in power of over 4.5GW. That would be a lot more than a power plant. So junction could get there. https://twitter.com/netz_frequenz/status/1347537615097049101...

At least 3 large power stations. But is that necessarily a loss of supply or could it be a spike in demand? The UK was famous for demand spikes when people turned on kettles during the break in popular soap opras or football games. Maybe a cold day tripped a bunch of houses to turn on their electric heating?

related: Water usage (toilet flushes) in the city of Berlin during the Germany - Portugal soccer match

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/28mmsn/water_usage_...

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#29

Post by cjdell » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

Am I naive in assuming that many grid stability issues could be fixed by mandating all electric heaters automatically cut off at, say below 49.9Hz?

It is my understanding that modern home EV chargers have the capability to do this to some extent, but I'm not sure if it's actually utilised?

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#30

Post by lispm » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

France seems to have problems generating enough electricity for the current winter demand.

https://www.lefigaro.fr/conso/electricite-pour-eviter-des-co...

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/People-in-France...

Britain, too:

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/britains-national-grid-issues-warn...

German press reports about cold temperature and of not enough nuclear power online in France. Reason: maintenance backlogs due to Corona. 44 of 56 reactors are online, next week only 43.

They'll may import up to 12 GW electricity from Switzerland and Germany.

https://www.fr.de/wirtschaft/droht-frankreich-ein-blackout-9...