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Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

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Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#41

Post by cjdell »

johncessna wrote: post #33
cjdell wrote: post #29

Am I naive in assuming that many grid stability issues could be fixed by mandating all electric heaters automatically cut off at, say below 49.9Hz? It is my understanding that modern home EV chargers have the capability to do this to some extent, but I'm not sure if it's actually utilised?

It seems like a better solution would be batteries and/or the allowance of dirtier power generation (in emergencies). I can't even wrap my head around the regulatory nightmare of shutting off everyone's heat at night in January.

Perhaps I don't understand the grid properly. I thought the average frequency was always maintained at 50Hz over a 24 hour period. Having the frequency dip below 49.9Hz would normally be exceptionally rare.

I mean, if the alternative is a blackout, having heating turned off for a few minutes over a 24 period would be preferable to a nationwide blackout? It's not as if people would suddenly freeze to death anyway.

Just curious if someone who understood this better had a good explanation for why this might be a bad idea.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#42

Post by q3k »

cjdell wrote: post #29

Am I naive in assuming that many grid stability issues could be fixed by mandating all electric heaters automatically cut off at, say below 49.9Hz? It is my understanding that modern home EV chargers have the capability to do this to some extent, but I'm not sure if it's actually utilised?

There already are load shedding measures [1] put in place for situations like these.

[1] - https://www.netzfrequenzmessung.de/abschaltung.htm

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#43

Post by PragmaticPulp »

cjdell wrote: post #29

Am I naive in assuming that many grid stability issues could be fixed by mandating all electric heaters automatically cut off at, say below 49.9Hz? It is my understanding that modern home EV chargers have the capability to do this to some extent, but I'm not sure if it's actually utilised?

This needs central coordination to really work. You also need customer incentives to get buy in.

Power companies do something similar with air conditioning units in hot areas. Customers can opt-in to have a control module installed that modulates their A/C on and off at peak loads to control demand. Customers get some nominal discount on their bill for participating.

Worked better when people weren’t working from home and it didn’t matter if your house was a bit warmer than normal for an hour or two mid-day.

Controlling this on end devices introduces a lot of distributed systems problems, like stampeding herd when all of the devices switch back on. You could try jittered back off and such, but cold customers would just unplug and replug until it worked.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#44

Post by ju-st »

wil421 wrote: post #16

Are Kosovo and Serbia having issues again? [1] [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/serbia-kosovo-energy/serbia-...

Apparently: https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/RS

Serbia is currently only consuming ~30% of the usual power, Bosnia and Montenegro are at 60%, Croatia 50%, other neighbouring countries had quiet some spikes as well.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#45

Post by gonzo41 »

lispm wrote: post #30

France seems to have problems generating enough electricity for the current winter demand. https://www.lefigaro.fr/conso/electricite-pour-eviter-des-co... https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/People-in-France... Britain, too: https://uk.news.yahoo.com/britains-national-grid-issues-warn... German press reports about cold temperature and of not enough nuclear power online in France. Reason: maintenance backlogs…

People are meant to be sharing heating in an office building during the day. I have a wood fire, and I usually have enough wood stacked in summer to make it through winter. Last year I was out in the cold chopping because we had the fire on all the time.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#46

Post by andarleen »

k3liutZu wrote: post #25
nottorp wrote: post #14

Romanian news are screaming about several counties (like 1/5 of RO) being blacked out and this being a problem at the interconnection with the neighboring power grids. From the little I know about power lines, events like this can cascade to half a continent.

High voltage fluctuations today. Instead of 220V we got down to ~165V. Internet outages on top (I assume some hardware failed since multiple counties were affected on the RDS network). Edit. Here's a power graphic: https://www.transelectrica.ro/widget/web/tel/sen-grafic/-/SE... Seems Romanias production fell under the consumption at around 15:30 Water fell at that time, so maybe some hydro was shut down? We did have…

they'll beg eu funding to fix their corrupt power grid

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#47

Post by gruez »

k3liutZu wrote: post #25
nottorp wrote: post #14

Romanian news are screaming about several counties (like 1/5 of RO) being blacked out and this being a problem at the interconnection with the neighboring power grids. From the little I know about power lines, events like this can cascade to half a continent.

High voltage fluctuations today. Instead of 220V we got down to ~165V. Internet outages on top (I assume some hardware failed since multiple counties were affected on the RDS network). Edit. Here's a power graphic: https://www.transelectrica.ro/widget/web/tel/sen-grafic/-/SE... Seems Romanias production fell under the consumption at around 15:30 Water fell at that time, so maybe some hydro was shut down? We did have…

>Instead of 220V we got down to ~165V.

Are homes experiencing brownouts? Or is it only in the distribution system?

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#48

Post by littlestymaar »

lispm wrote: post #30

France seems to have problems generating enough electricity for the current winter demand. https://www.lefigaro.fr/conso/electricite-pour-eviter-des-co... https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/People-in-France... Britain, too: https://uk.news.yahoo.com/britains-national-grid-issues-warn... German press reports about cold temperature and of not enough nuclear power online in France. Reason: maintenance backlogs…

While true, it's very unlikely to be the reason for what we're seeing here (a sharp drop at 14:05), it's most likely related to a plant failure (likely a nuclear / hydro plant) somewhere in Europe.

Edit: according to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25685833 it means that there's more than 4GW went missing, which rules out a hydro plant failure and make nuclear plant failure unlikely (only three plants, all of them in France, would be big enough for that and there was no drop in French electricity production today: https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix/la-production-delectricit...)

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#49

Post by raverbashing »

k3liutZu wrote: post #25
nottorp wrote: post #14

Romanian news are screaming about several counties (like 1/5 of RO) being blacked out and this being a problem at the interconnection with the neighboring power grids. From the little I know about power lines, events like this can cascade to half a continent.

High voltage fluctuations today. Instead of 220V we got down to ~165V. Internet outages on top (I assume some hardware failed since multiple counties were affected on the RDS network). Edit. Here's a power graphic: https://www.transelectrica.ro/widget/web/tel/sen-grafic/-/SE... Seems Romanias production fell under the consumption at around 15:30 Water fell at that time, so maybe some hydro was shut down? We did have…

I think voltage fluctuations from 220v to 165v are usually a local issue rather than an upstream issue (trees falling on wires, etc)

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#50

Post by danielovichdk »

I like these stories because they make me remember that things like electricity and water are not free.

Water and electricity should be a lot more expensive, then people would start to understand that having an Electric car, 10+ devices in the household, a washer, a drier, lights, tvs and all that shit is expensive for the lot.

But people don't really care, as long as our things work and we are not bothered by anyone else.

Pretty much like this

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