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Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

asahilinux.org

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Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#221

Post by wmf »

gorkish wrote: post #204

Apple needs to give a little here. I think it's patently ridiculous that we have to enlist the assistance of console hackers in order to have a chance at porting the most used operating system in the entire world to run on hardware that in all likelihood already happily runs it inside of Apple's labs. > In particular, we will be reverse engineering the Apple GPU architecture and developing an open source driver for i…

Several mobile GPUs have been reverse-engineered so it's not as hard as you think. As for the ecosystem, if users care enough to pay for it then it doesn't matter how little Apple cares.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#222

Post by bgorman »

wmf wrote: post #159
bgorman wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely not true, IP blocks are available for all critical features and chip layout can be outsourced. ARM has a Cortex-X chip available for licensing for anyone that wants a high performance CPU core. For example, HP (who also makes laptops) has custom ASICs running Linux in their printers.

Even if you use all licensed IP the market might not be profitable enough to pay back the cost. We're talking about a $50M+ leap of faith.

HP had 10.2 billion in profit last year.

Source: https://www.wsj.com/market-data/quotes/HPQ/financials/annual...

Certainly enough to take a 50 million dollar risk.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#223

Post by wmf »

jd3 wrote: post #202

This is really cool! Does anyone know why a similar project doesn't exist currently using the open source distribution of Apple's Darwin operating system? It has always seemed strange to me that their open source BSD OS does not have an official distribution channel with a built in package manager like macports, pkg-src, gentoo prefix, etc. OpenDarwin and PureDarwin existed for awhile, but seem to have both been aban…

Darwin isn't a good OS.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#224

Post by tadfisher »

zarkov99 wrote: post #211
abestic9 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a not-insignificant number of people that want to do more with their Mac than run software from a single marketplace.

Yes, I am one, but is Apple really better off selling more machines but having fewer people inside their eco-system?

Presumably those people would just not buy Apple hardware if buying into the ecosystem was a requirement. So if that number is non-zero, and Apple sells hardware above cost, then yes, Apple is better off selling only its hardware and not its services to this small subset of the market.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#225

Post by paulryanrogers »

svenpeter wrote: post #192
pricci wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember it was because geohot "jailbreaked" the PS3 using the Linux capabilities to some extent. But I could be wrong.

There were two versions of the PS3: The original model and a slimmed down version released after a few years. the timeline was something like this: - Sony released the original PS3 with Linux running under a hypervisor that locked certain things (e.g. 3D rendering and their DRM) - Sony released the PS3 slim without Linux. They claimed they didn't have the resources to make Linux run on it. (We later figured out all t…

Got a link to that story?

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#226

Post by sjwright »

sneak wrote: post #203
machello13 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've plenty communicated their intention to not turn the Mac into the iPhone/iPad. And besides which, it would be a disastrous product strategy to do that, from a company that's absolutely top-of-the-ball when it comes to product strategy.

There are entitlements on macOS that are not provided outside of the App Store, such as NetworkExtension API VPNs. There is also no way to turn off the persistent, hardware-serial-number-based APNS connection to Apple, tracking the system from IP to IP whenever it's on, even when no apps are running. You also can't wipe and restore a mac with filevault without an online reactivation from Apple, even if you have local…

The matter of Filevault isn't necessarily a bad thing, for many people it's a highly desirable feature. I like the fact that iOS activation lock significantly lowered the value of stolen iPhones; I look forward to the same happening with MacBooks.

And if you don't like it, just switch it off.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#227

Post by wmf »

ogre_codes wrote: post #125
turbinerneiter wrote: post #72

A lot of time, money and effort invested to support a platform whos creator is unwilling to provide support. I think it's part of the Linux ethos to run on everything, but I also think this kind of effort is ... not wasted, but I feel like it could be spent more efficiently. Still looking forward to hear about the first successful boots and the epic reverse engineering feats. Just wish this kind of stuff wouldn't be…

> A lot of time, money and effort invested to support a platform whos creator is unwilling to provide support. If Linux only ran on hardware which the creator was willing to provide support, Linux would not exist. Linux was created in spite of Intel, Nvidia, AMD, etc etc. Support from the makers only came later. Linux was originally an OS created by people who wanted to do things the OEMs and commercial vendors didn'…

Maybe you're over-interpreting "support". The x86 PC platform at least provided documentation for OS developers while Apple Silicon doesn't.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#228

Post by nyolfen »

zarkov99 wrote: post #211
abestic9 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a not-insignificant number of people that want to do more with their Mac than run software from a single marketplace.

Yes, I am one, but is Apple really better off selling more machines but having fewer people inside their eco-system?

they may be better off in future antitrust proceedings

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#229

Post by zarkov99 »

tadfisher wrote: post #224
zarkov99 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I am one, but is Apple really better off selling more machines but having fewer people inside their eco-system?

Presumably those people would just not buy Apple hardware if buying into the ecosystem was a requirement. So if that number is non-zero, and Apple sells hardware above cost, then yes, Apple is better off selling only its hardware and not its services to this small subset of the market.

Thats the thing though. The hardware is so good that there are people who would run Linux on the Mac if they could, but since they can't they cave in and just run MacOS. I have an M1 and its so much better than my Linux XPS 15 that I just end up using the M1 (and getting sucked into their eco-system). And this is just their first release!

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#230

Post by SomaticPirate »

zucker42 wrote: post #104
corytheboyd wrote: post #55

I hope this and projects like it spearhead a movement of ARM laptops outside of the Apple-sphere. I wonder if System76, for example, has their eyes on being the first to market as “the Linux laptop on ARM”. Seems right up their alley. Also worth noting that I understand that System76 and Apple are not comparable companies. One is a humble operation installing a custom Linux build on rebranded hardware, and the other…

The problem is no other laptop manufacturer besides Apple has the capital and resources to build their own chip.

Not just their own chip, arguable one of the highest performance ones. At Intel, the mobile division was simply trying to keep pace with Arm with Apple always a distant dream. Later at Arm, no one had any idea what the hell Apple was doing. They pay for the ISA and that is basically as far as I ever saw the collaboration going (besides poaching top engineers).

Most interesting thing I ever saw was that they bought Intrinsity[1] to create custom EDA tools for them. There is a decent technical moat to overcome.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsity

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