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Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

arstechnica.com

141–150 of 337 posts

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#141

Could the $10 million fine be used by a future defendant to argue that the crime is not a big deal? What if members of FAANG+M decided to hack small startups or even each other?

> What if members of FAANG+M decided to hack small startups or even each other?

You mean the way Amazon does it every day to successful, independent small sellers, copies their products and bans them from Amazon without providing a reason why? The way Google removed Tutanota from search results? Microsoft spread FUD about open-source? Or like Oracle acquired MySQL?

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#142
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth noting that TicketMaster also paid $110MM to "acquire" SongKick in order to settle the original (civil) lawsuit.

This could be a business model.

Sounds like some solid DD to me

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#143
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are an insane amount of car accident-related deaths & injuries every year. At least 30,000 deaths/year in the USA alone. Because humans drive tired, drunk, while texting, etc, and sometimes just make mistakes. With fully automated driving the number of crashes (and therefore injuries & deaths) will go down -dramatically-. So you can argue all you want about the ethics & morality of the ~100 deaths/year or so fr…

> Because humans drive tired, drunk, while texting, etc, But I don't. I don't care about 30k deaths a year if I'm killed by a floating point exception or an image reconnaissance glitch making my car think the truck in front of me is part of the sky.

But you do make mistakes. All humans do. Maybe you had an argument with a family member earlier in the day, and your mind wanders and you don't notice a red light. Maybe it's night, and raining, and some unexpected glare combined with debris in the road causes you to crash. Maybe you do drive tired, just once, even though generally you're strict about not doing so. Having a perfect driving record requires both luck (that no one else around you screws up) and constant vigilance on your part. Blemishing that record only takes the tiniest mistake, just once. No one, literally no one, is immune to these factors.

As much as I dislike the term "accident" when talking about car crashes (because, to me, the implication of the word is no one has to take responsibility), sometimes things just happen, because we are imperfect beings with imperfect nervous systems and imperfect perceptions and imperfect reaction times.

Self-driving cars will be better at a lot of things, but, yes, possibly worse at others. They have the potential to eliminate many causes of crashes, but might add a few new ones.

When you're on a plane, you're trusting not only the pilots, but a ton of complex avionics software. Why is that ok, while trusting self-driving isn't? I get that the two tasks are very different, and self-driving will require more sophisticated, nuanced software, but in both cases you're turning your safety over to a computer. That didn't work so well with the 737-MAX, but no one is talking about scrapping modern aviation because a bunch of people died due to bad software decisions.

The problem is the illusion of control. People think that driving their own car means they're in control of nearly every possible outcome, but in reality, they're not. Plenty of things can happen in a car that are out of the driver's control, even without another vehicle involved.

Another part of it is that people (Americans especially) can be excessively individualistic. Many people will balk at a solution that will result in (just making up numbers here) 25% fewer deaths if it means they personally will have a 0.001% greater chance of dying. Frankly, I find that mindset really worrying in a society, even if it can be understandable.

(Somewhat relatedly, I recall an episode of Star Trek TNG where one possible solution to the problem du jour was to give the computer full control over propulsion in order to save the ship. And we're talking about a futuristic computer that could probably flawlessly simultaneously self-drive every car currently on Earth without breaking a sweat. But in the end, blatantly pandering to our "human control is always superior" biases, the computer was found to be not good enough, and humans saved the day. Even more telling, I believe it was Captain Picard who took manual control; they didn't even have Data, the android, do it!)

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but LiveNation doesn't hold stock worth $16B and cannot easily issue new stock.

I didn't realize paying criminal penalties was supposed to be fun and easy ;) this is literally restitution for a crime. "Uh, no Judge, I don't think I should be forced to go to prison, that's hard " [edit] Maybe this is controversial, I dunno, I might just be old fashioned that way, but my opinion is if you find the punishment too onerous maybe don't do crime .

I think there are some extradition lawyers who would agree with this

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but LiveNation doesn't hold stock worth $16B and cannot easily issue new stock.

I didn't realize paying criminal penalties was supposed to be fun and easy ;) this is literally restitution for a crime. "Uh, no Judge, I don't think I should be forced to go to prison, that's hard " [edit] Maybe this is controversial, I dunno, I might just be old fashioned that way, but my opinion is if you find the punishment too onerous maybe don't do crime .

This was a deferred prosecution agreement between Ticketmaster and a DOJ lawyer, not the court's decision. In the US, courts have limited power to review these agreements and generally judges just approve them every time. In other countries that allow DPE's, courts may have the power to limit their use.

The agreement might state what Ticketmaster must do or refrain from doing after the effective date to avoid being prosecuted in the future. Paying a fine might be only one part of the agreement.

One can only make assumptions about what the court might have found regarding the CFAA claim. The fact is, it did not get the opportunity.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#146

So Anthony Levandowski got 18 months in prison for stealing self driving car secrets from Waymo (Alphabet) and passing them to Uber. Live Nation did $10B in revenue in 2017 and they're fined 0.1% of annual revenue for a CFAA violation which has sentences up to 20 years for individuals.

In China, the CEO would probably disappear for a few months

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#147
post #127
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restitution is one of the comparably less important facets of our legal system (IMO), the important strength of a good legal system is deterrence. Restitution should (again IMO) in fact be severed from judgement, harmed parties should be reimbursed by the government and the government can excise penalties on the offending parties. There are a lot of cases where defendants should be hit with serious fines due to the p…

Aren't people constantly arguing that deterrence is ineffective against individuals, and that rehabilitation is best? I don't take a personal view on these things, but I would imagine that the people arguing for more severe 'punishment' of corporations and white-collar criminals are the ones arguing for lenience in violent and other individual crime.

It's possible for both of those views to coexist. I have no idea if the data fits such a model, but off the top of my head here are a few factors which might matter.

1. White-collar criminals might be more significantly deterred by the threat of any prison time, perhaps because they have more to lose or because such crimes have more premeditation.

2. Prison might work as a deterrent in general, but if 20yrs will already ruin your life then the additional threat of another 80yrs might have little to no impact.

3. Rehabilitation might have a stronger effect than deterrence, which could point to hybrid solutions leveraging both effects, supposing they mix appropriately.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#148
Compare this slap on the wrist to Aaron Swartz:

Federal prosecutors later charged him with two counts of wire fraud and eleven violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act,[15] carrying a cumulative maximum penalty of $1 million in fines, 35 years in prison, asset forfeiture, restitution, and supervised release.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#149
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth noting that TicketMaster also paid $110MM to "acquire" SongKick in order to settle the original (civil) lawsuit.

This could be a business model.

The world is turning more and more into neuromancer / shadowrun everyday..

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#150
post #45

> Ticketmaster has agreed to pay a $10 million criminal fine Live Nation is worth $16 Billion. This is like a person with a $100k net worth having to pay a $62 fine, basically an expensive parking ticket. They might as well tell them to write "I will not hack my competitors" on the blackboard 100 times.

This is the not-quite-last (there's a deferred prosecution agreement that is part of this) in a series of consequences in a case that goes way back in time. I'm not sure I follow the logic of looking at the net worth of a conglomerate when assessing a fine. If someone parks the corporate car in a no-parking zone, or spits out chewing gum on the sidewalk, you're not going to fine them x% of net worth. At least in term…

Some countries actually do this, charge variable fines depending on net worth. The fine in this case is to de-incentivize bad behavior like reckless driving.
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