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Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

arstechnica.com

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Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#101

Post by s1artibartfast »

arcticbull wrote: post #67
brokensegue wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but LiveNation doesn't hold stock worth $16B and cannot easily issue new stock.

I didn't realize paying criminal penalties was supposed to be fun and easy ;) this is literally restitution for a crime. "Uh, no Judge, I don't think I should be forced to go to prison, that's hard " [edit] Maybe this is controversial, I dunno, I might just be old fashioned that way, but my opinion is if you find the punishment too onerous maybe don't do crime .

It is not restitution if the money doesn’t go the harmed party

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#102

Post by byset »

CerealFounder wrote: post #92
Nacdor wrote: post #45

> Ticketmaster has agreed to pay a $10 million criminal fine Live Nation is worth $16 Billion. This is like a person with a $100k net worth having to pay a $62 fine, basically an expensive parking ticket. They might as well tell them to write "I will not hack my competitors" on the blackboard 100 times.

LOL A criminal fine. Is there anything more insane than nobody being personally responsible for committing a crime. Like an institution woke up and developed cognition.

But per the article, a Ticketmaster employee has pleaded guilty to a criminal offense related to the hacking

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#103

Post by andrewzah »

rantwasp wrote: post #68
andrewzah wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I care about dying from being hit by lightning and airplane crashes. It's statistically so unlikely that it's ridiculous to worry about it. If you die from a car crash it doesn't matter if it was from a drunk driver or an ai glitch. What matters is which is more likely- and humans are assholes. It will be orders of magnitude more likely to die by a human's hand than a random glitch. > "But I don't" I'm glad. Cras…

nah. it sounds like you’re arguing what the odds are but let me ask a question: what are the odds that a self driving car has a “glitch”? At what threshold should one be willing to bet their lives in this probability every time they drive? Right now we are speculating what the odds a self driving car has to make a mistake. But there aren’t any truly self driving car out there. So how do you determine the actual odds?…

We're not there yet, but at some point we will be. It probably won't be within the next 5 years, maybe even 10. All that matters is that the # of deaths from automated driving ends up less than the # of deaths from human driving.

If 1,000 people a year die from software glitches, that's still a 30x+ improvement from the current situation.

I really don't see how people focus so much on "potential glitches" and not the current reality: drunk drivers, angry/hostile road-ragey people, people on the phone, people texting while driving, people on medication, people driving while sleepy, etc. A few glitches here and there is objectively superior to the current state of affairs.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#104

Post by cbsmith »

Nacdor wrote: post #45

> Ticketmaster has agreed to pay a $10 million criminal fine Live Nation is worth $16 Billion. This is like a person with a $100k net worth having to pay a $62 fine, basically an expensive parking ticket. They might as well tell them to write "I will not hack my competitors" on the blackboard 100 times.

This is the not-quite-last (there's a deferred prosecution agreement that is part of this) in a series of consequences in a case that goes way back in time.

I'm not sure I follow the logic of looking at the net worth of a conglomerate when assessing a fine. If someone parks the corporate car in a no-parking zone, or spits out chewing gum on the sidewalk, you're not going to fine them x% of net worth. At least in terms of consequences for the corporation, you'd they would be (punitively) proportional to the economic impact of the criminal activity.

What was the impact of this conduct? It's not mentioned in the story. If they paid a $10 million fine on criminal activity that gleaned them a $1 billion advantage, then yeah this is a slap on the wrist. If it's a $10 million fine on something that gave them a $10 advantage, it's arguably overly punitive.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#105

Post by shmageggy »

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #100

Wait, SongKick went out of business? What the hell is the app installed on my phone, then?

Clicking through some of the links in the article, it looks like it refers to their ticketing operation which was apparently separate.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#106

Post by munk-a »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #101
arcticbull wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't realize paying criminal penalties was supposed to be fun and easy ;) this is literally restitution for a crime. "Uh, no Judge, I don't think I should be forced to go to prison, that's hard " [edit] Maybe this is controversial, I dunno, I might just be old fashioned that way, but my opinion is if you find the punishment too onerous maybe don't do crime .

It is not restitution if the money doesn’t go the harmed party

Restitution is one of the comparably less important facets of our legal system (IMO), the important strength of a good legal system is deterrence. Restitution should (again IMO) in fact be severed from judgement, harmed parties should be reimbursed by the government and the government can excise penalties on the offending parties. There are a lot of cases where defendants should be hit with serious fines due to the potential and foreseeable damages of their actions but the claimants suffered comparatively little - in these cases an imbalanced judgement where the defendant is hit with a strong penalty that is only partially awarded to the claimant is fair... Then again (in the US at least) the legal system is essentially privatized with very little government intervention in cases so this would require some other changes to do properly.

The other side of the coin is quite damaging to our society as well - a defendant being judgement proof (having nothing to penalize or fine) can deprive claimants of funds needed to repair the damage of the crime - this, again, is a case where the government awarding funds and then regaining those funds from the defendant independently would be quite beneficial.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#107

Post by tschwimmer »

Nacdor wrote: post #45

> Ticketmaster has agreed to pay a $10 million criminal fine Live Nation is worth $16 Billion. This is like a person with a $100k net worth having to pay a $62 fine, basically an expensive parking ticket. They might as well tell them to write "I will not hack my competitors" on the blackboard 100 times.

A street cleaning ticket in SF is $79 and is probably one of the cheapest fines you'll pay.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#108

Post by ogre_codes »

fastball wrote: post #79
ogre_codes wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Barry Bond got caught doping, nobody said "The SF Giants were doping". Barry Bond owned that. That's all I'm looking for here.

But this was a collective effort that involved multiple people within the company. When "the Astros" got caught stealing signs, we say it was the Astros, even though the majority of people involved with the team were not involved with the sign-stealing.

You are arguing semantics (and apparently my first post focused too much on semantics). I am mostly concerned about accountability. The Astros cheating scandal resulted in:

> "As a result, Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow and field manager A. J. Hinch were suspended for the entire 2020 season for failing to prevent the rules violations. The Astros were fined the maximum allowable $5 million and forfeited their first- and second-round picks in the 2020 and 2021 drafts. No players were punished because they had been given immunity by MLB in exchange for their cooperation.[1] The Astros subsequently fired both Luhnow and Hinch on the day their suspensions were announced"

The individuals who made the decisions were held accountable, or at least some of them.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#109

Post by whalesalad »

tschwimmer wrote: post #107
Nacdor wrote: post #45

> Ticketmaster has agreed to pay a $10 million criminal fine Live Nation is worth $16 Billion. This is like a person with a $100k net worth having to pay a $62 fine, basically an expensive parking ticket. They might as well tell them to write "I will not hack my competitors" on the blackboard 100 times.

A street cleaning ticket in SF is $79 and is probably one of the cheapest fines you'll pay.

A parking ticket in Chelsea, Michigan is $8. I forgot to pay it for 6 months and they didn't even care.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#110

Post by at-fates-hands »

MaysonL wrote: post #97
naravara wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When accountants at Enron defrauded the State of California and the SEC, we didn't say "accountants at Enron." We said "Enron" and held Enron, the entity, responsible.

Also the CEO, COO and CFO were sentenced to prison.

Jeffrey Skilling served 24 years in jail

Andrew Fastow committed suicide

Ken Lay died of a heart attack before his trial

Lou Pai walked away with $250 million and disappeared

The litany of charges that were brought against the rest of the people involved have not been very successful:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-ap-enron-trial-glance-sto...

All of those sentenced in the above article were for reduced sentences since many of them testified against Skilling and others in order to get a shorter sentence.

The only one who served any real prison time was Skilling.

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