I refuse to tolerate assholes • Hacker News Board

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#61

Post by wccrawford » Thu, May 19, 2011, 6:49 PM UTC

jacobian wrote: post #55

wccrawford wrote: post #5

Have you looked in the mirror, man? That entire posts exudes the exact same behavior you are condemning. You've asked for them to be fired? That wasn't your place, and the penalty is far too harsh for the crime. You were attempting to ruin their livelihood because you don't like them. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." - The Bible. Nobody would get to throw a stone. Nobody fits the criteria of being 'p…

In the case I'm talking about, the gentleman in question threw a chair out a window halfway through a meeting. This after months of threatening violence against co-workers after showing up to work drunk. You bet your ass I asked for him to be fired. He wasn't, so I quit. I'm very sorry that my post rubbed you the wrong way. My intention is simply to suggest that we shouldn't tolerate antisocial behavior in our commun…

I definitely agree that antisocial behavior should be noticed and handled. I don't agree with asking a coworker to be fired.

Alerting your manager that the situation is intolerable is perfectly cool. Demanding that someone be fired just isn't. (This applies to customers demanding employees to be fired, too.) If the offense is really that serious, the manager already knows how to handle it. If he has a history of these things, again, the manager knows and can deal with it. There is a chain of command in place for a reason.

It's your right to quit whenever you want, for whatever reason you want. I don't argue with that. I would probably refuse to work with the chair-thrower, too, out of safety concerns. But I wouldn't demand he be fired.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#62

Post by StefanKarpinski » Thu, May 19, 2011, 6:52 PM UTC

Yes, definitely, let's not tolerate assholes like RMS (almost unarguably an asshole) or Linus (arguably an asshole, although, I for one find his directness and lack of tact refreshing and amusing) in open source. So let's get rid of Linux and GNU and start over.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#63

Post by jacobian » Thu, May 19, 2011, 6:56 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #14

> These people behave in a way that would not be tolerated in real life. I’ve worked with a few of these jerks in real life, and when they’ve been unable to restrain their behavior I’ve asked for them to be fired, and I’ve quit. Just because you couldn't tolerate them doesn't mean they aren't tolerated. When you asked for them to be fired (instead of asking the manager to talk to them about their behavior), were they…

I was thinking of two specific instances (luckily this sort of crap is rare and it's only happened to me those two times).

In the first instance, the person in question was my direct boss and was responsible for reviewing my code. He'd routinely call me an idiot, a retard, etc., and during meetings he'd often say things like "no, we can't give that to Jacob - he'll just fuck it up." Now, in his defense I was a pretty shitty developer at the time, but I do believe there are more constructive ways of reviewing code than calling the author a retard. I dealt with it for a few months, and finally asked his boss to transfer one of us. When I explained the reasons, this person was fired.

In the second case, my coworker was showing up to work drunk, yelling and cursing at coworkers, and routinely threatened violence -- "I'm gonna beat your ass if you don't shut the fuck up" was, I believe, a common line. Once he threw a chair through a window halfway through a (technical) meeting. Again I was too much of a coward to call him on his behavior directly, but yes I spoke to first my boss, then his, then the owner of the company. Nothing changed, so ultimately I quit.

In retrospect I certainly didn't behave perfectly: I should have confronted the behavior directly, and I should have made clear what my expectations were with regard to a professional working environment. But I was young, and all in all I'm proud of myself for not tolerating abuse (even if I didn't go about it quite right).

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#64

Post by ericb » Thu, May 19, 2011, 6:58 PM UTC

sophacles wrote: post #30

ericb wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the attitude you endorse just enables the assholism. Assholes ruin their own livelihood by being assholes, no need to blame the victims of their vitriol. For any given job, there are hundreds of other equally deserving candidates who aren't jerks . Getting fired gives assholes a chance to learn their behavior isn't acceptable, and is only fair to the more-deserving candidate who then fills the position.

I think the reactionary ideals you promote enforce and enable sliminess. The person with the best presentation and fakest smile wins over any actual merit. You are actively endorsing the world of used-car salesmen, A&R reps, and so on, where substance and a solid stance are detrimental to success. Pathological extremes at both ends are still pathological, the correct response to an extreme is not its opposite, but a…

If I understand your post, implicit in what you are saying is that people skills and even the mere trait "not an asshole" is antithetical to technical competence, which I don't believe.

If that isn't what you're implying, then it seems you are putting up a false choice between merit and people skills.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#65

Post by mtoddh » Thu, May 19, 2011, 7:20 PM UTC

jacobian wrote: post #63

pavel_lishin wrote: post #14

> These people behave in a way that would not be tolerated in real life. I’ve worked with a few of these jerks in real life, and when they’ve been unable to restrain their behavior I’ve asked for them to be fired, and I’ve quit. Just because you couldn't tolerate them doesn't mean they aren't tolerated. When you asked for them to be fired (instead of asking the manager to talk to them about their behavior), were they…

I was thinking of two specific instances (luckily this sort of crap is rare and it's only happened to me those two times). In the first instance, the person in question was my direct boss and was responsible for reviewing my code. He'd routinely call me an idiot, a retard, etc., and during meetings he'd often say things like "no, we can't give that to Jacob - he'll just fuck it up." Now, in his defense I was a pretty…

Awesome. Please tell us the names of these companies where managers refer to their employees as "retards", coworkers show up drunk, and it takes direct confrontation to get any of it resolved. Because I doubt anyone here wants to end up working at these places either.

Kudos to you for standing up for yourself.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#66

Post by mtoddh » Thu, May 19, 2011, 7:27 PM UTC

awj wrote: post #38

sophacles wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reactionary ideals you promote enforce and enable sliminess. The person with the best presentation and fakest smile wins over any actual merit. You are actively endorsing the world of used-car salesmen, A&R reps, and so on, where substance and a solid stance are detrimental to success. Pathological extremes at both ends are still pathological, the correct response to an extreme is not its opposite, but a…

...how did you make that leap? Where does "it should be possible for being a jerk to get you fired" lead to "enforcing and enabling sliminess"? It is entirely possible to hold a firm stance on what you think is the correct approach without being a jerk. It is equally possible to create a friendly atmosphere without acting like a used car salesman. I think you're reading more into the GP's statements than was intended…

Judging from a lot of the responses on this thread, it seems like there's a sort of unwritten assumption that people who act like jerks are technically proficient, while people who are easy to get along with are only "acting nice" to make up for their lack-luster technical skills.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#67

Post by IamBren » Thu, May 19, 2011, 7:27 PM UTC

jonnathanson wrote: post #32

rauljara wrote: post #10

Preface: Something I've noticed about jerks/assholes: they're convinced that they're surrounded by jerks and/or assholes. Almost none of them are jerks for no reason. They're almost always jerks in response to some slight (either imagined, or blown way out of proportion). A good sign that you might be a jerk is that you see jerks all around you. Most people are basically all right. If you (1) run into conflicts with…

They're almost always jerks in response to some slight (either imagined, or blown way out of proportion). Either that, or they're just clinically certifiable narcissists. True narcissists are world-class pains in the ass like nothing else on the many spectra of personality disorders.

I've read books on this because I have had to deal with more than one of these people. One of the leading experts on Narcissism says that most therapists won't even deal with these people they are so difficult to treat.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#68

Post by albedoa » Thu, May 19, 2011, 7:27 PM UTC

rauljara wrote: post #10

Preface: Something I've noticed about jerks/assholes: they're convinced that they're surrounded by jerks and/or assholes. Almost none of them are jerks for no reason. They're almost always jerks in response to some slight (either imagined, or blown way out of proportion). A good sign that you might be a jerk is that you see jerks all around you. Most people are basically all right. If you (1) run into conflicts with…

You've created a situation where nobody can refute your premise that "most people are basically all right" without outing himself as part of the cause according to the conclusion derived from that premise. Impressive :P

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#69

Post by T_S_ » Thu, May 19, 2011, 7:30 PM UTC

I've worked with lots of these over the years. The really successful young ones were called enfant terribles. Sounds much nicer, non? My tolerance was in proportion to my paycheck, and I never saw management crack down unless they were heading off a discrimination case.

Nowadays I work on a small startup. Hard computer problems are easier than simple people problems!

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#70

Post by sophacles » Thu, May 19, 2011, 7:30 PM UTC

ericb wrote: post #64

sophacles wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reactionary ideals you promote enforce and enable sliminess. The person with the best presentation and fakest smile wins over any actual merit. You are actively endorsing the world of used-car salesmen, A&R reps, and so on, where substance and a solid stance are detrimental to success. Pathological extremes at both ends are still pathological, the correct response to an extreme is not its opposite, but a…

If I understand your post, implicit in what you are saying is that people skills and even the mere trait "not an asshole" is antithetical to technical competence, which I don't believe. If that isn't what you're implying, then it seems you are putting up a false choice between merit and people skills.

Not at all. You are very clever in you attempt to deflect your false choice situation by accusing me of it.

In fact, I am suggesting that your notion of 0-tolerance for assholism is an extreme, no better than complete endorsement and rewards for assholism. If you are not suggesting 0-tolerance for assholism, then I appologize, it just seems that way since you respond to call for moderation and some tolerance with a rejection of that principle.