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Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

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Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#211

Post by CuriousSkeptic »

X-Istence wrote: post #172
confluence_perf wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to hear it's been a frustrating experience. I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? (edit: looks like HN is severely limiting my reply rate so apologies for delays) We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number…

Other commenters have hit on this already, but the worst one that bites me all of the time is this one: 1. I click a link to an issue 2. I need to do something on that issue, so I attempt to click on a particular section to go make a modification 3. Bam, some background script has loaded, some new piece of content was shoved in, and what I clicked wasn't the thing I was expecting to click Also, certain interactions w…

> Project managers love JIRA, but engineers don't

I think this is the core issue. It is simply not designed to be useful for developers, it’s designed for managing developers.

It’s the same issue with time reporting tools. The UI for entering data is just there because it needs to, but it’s not the central selling point of the software.

The UX for the data entry is just not designed to solve any problems besides accepting the data required for the reports that are the real product.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#212

Post by jiggawatts »

BillinghamJ wrote: post #175
launderthis wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no dont give into this guy ... this is done over the net. The rate of transfer has to be taken into account. Unacceptable is a measure of comparison. Unacceptable to who, you have a faster provider for cheaper, with as many features??? Im pretty sure he doesnt because if he could he would go there. There are tradeoffs and Atlassian has many project they are working on. They understand that there is room for improveme…

You've shown poor understanding here. > Getting things below 1s is nearing the speed of the connection itself That is absolutely false. Internet latency is actually very low - even e.g. Paris to NZ is only about 270ms RTT, and you _do not_ need multiple full round trips to the application server for an encrypted connection - on the modern internet, connections are held open, and initial TLS termination is done at loc…

To put things in perspective, the typical Jira 5-second page load time as reported by many people in this forum is equivalent to twice the round-trip time for light to the Moon!

It's the network latency equivalent of a million kilometres of fibre!

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#213

Post by [deleted] »

jjuhl wrote: post #54
Hamuko wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with Atlassian's Terms of Service is that most of their end-users are not paying for the software and do not really care if they violate an agreement they were either forced to make or which someone made on their behalf.

Be honest; noone cares about (or reads) ToS agreements.

[deleted]

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#214

Post by fphhotchips »

BillinghamJ wrote: post #138
confluence_perf wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi michaelt, Thank you for the numbers -> I agree these are slow, and I can guarantee you that the Jira team is working on it (though I can't talk about details). These numbers are definitely outside of the goals. I appreciate the call out of "page to complete rendering and the progress bar at the top of the screen to disappear" and "until the issue, comment and buttons have all loaded". In a dream world of course, e…

> In a dream world of course, everything would load in It's important you understand that "everything loading in That is not "a dream world" - not even close. A well built tool like this, meeting standard expectations (i.e. table stakes), would hit You should be targeting This is why people are saying the company needs to make a major shift on this - you're not just out of the ballpark of table stakes here, you're ba…

Do you have evidence that what you're asking for is possible? I'd be interested to see websites that hit the benchmark that you're aiming for.

I just tested a HN profile page (famously one of the lightest weight non-static websites) and it takes between 300ms and 600ms to load. I'm not saying that Jira can't improve, but if HN isn't hitting 250ms then I think telling the Jira guys that nothing less than <200ms is the minimum standard is unrealistic.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#215

Post by benbristow »

isodev wrote: post #114
dalrympm wrote: post #22

I'm curious, I'm a Cloud customer and I can tell you that the service is incredibly slow even for a small scale setup (2 Jira Projects and 3 Confluence Workspaces). There's an insane amount of network requests seemingly for mouse tracking. By telling everyone here, that Atlassian Cloud products are insufferably slow, am I violating the ToS? I was actually thinking about doing a write up on the issues I've had but thi…

JetBrains recently announced Space and it looks pretty cool (and fast): https://www.jetbrains.com/space/

Looks interesting, like a JetBrains Azure DevOps/VSTS.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#216

Post by LeoNatan25 »

saagarjha wrote: post #101
dylan604 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will suddenly care when Atlassian locks them out of being able to access anything. Then, we'll see posts on Twitter or here or elsewhere about some user crying about not getting access to "their" stuff on a 3rd party's site.

The thing we’ve constructed of users not owning their content that they post on platforms and then holding the ability to lock them out of access to it arbitrarily is really one of the worst things that has happened to the web.

Legislation is overdue for this. US might be a lost cause, but in EU and elsewhere in the world, this can be greatly remedied.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#217

Post by NickNameNick »

miken123 wrote: post #112
confluence_perf wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to hear it's been a frustrating experience. I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? (edit: looks like HN is severely limiting my reply rate so apologies for delays) We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number…

> Would you be willing to share more specifics That's something you could easily figure out yourself. E.g., just grabbing some random JIRA: https://hibernate.atlassian.net/jira/software/c/projects/HV/... Opening an issue in that tracker takes 24 seconds for me. Twenty-four.

wow - clicking on an issue in that tracker was terrible. after 3-4 seconds I thought it had finished loading, but then the UI pulled a bunch more stuff in, and it didn't finish loading the image in the issue description - the most important part of the page - until 24.87s.

On 100Mb fiber...

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#218

Post by dalrympm »

confluence_perf wrote: post #28
dalrympm wrote: post #22

I'm curious, I'm a Cloud customer and I can tell you that the service is incredibly slow even for a small scale setup (2 Jira Projects and 3 Confluence Workspaces). There's an insane amount of network requests seemingly for mouse tracking. By telling everyone here, that Atlassian Cloud products are insufferably slow, am I violating the ToS? I was actually thinking about doing a write up on the issues I've had but thi…

Sorry to hear it's been a frustrating experience. I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? (edit: looks like HN is severely limiting my reply rate so apologies for delays) We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number…

@confluence_perf The Cloud applications provide multiple avenues for providing feedback directly in the user interface. Some/many of them are quite invasive (as in part of the screen is taken over with a "rate your experience editing this document"). I have used these avenues to provide feedback many many times over the years with my #1 response always being "focus on the performance". None of those ever get a response and I don't see what reiterating them in a HN post is going to solve. You have the data, please do something with it.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#219

Post by [deleted] »

MattGaiser wrote: post #164
judge2020 wrote: post #14

Cloudflare has this as well: >you will not and you have no right to: ... (f) perform or publish any benchmark tests or analyses relating to the Cloud Services without Cloudflare’s written consent; https://www.cloudflare.com/terms/#react-modal:~:text=(f)%20p...

Are these terms really that nefarious or just a way to terminate some customer who decides to load test your system and ends up bringing it down? Legal documents are typically written to be as broad as possible. Perhaps it should be more narrowly written, but prohibiting certain kinds of testing without permission is reasonable.

[deleted]

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#220

Post by NickNameNick »

ratww wrote: post #60
runlevel1 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Navigation is sluggish across the board in both Confluence and Jira. Not just the Cloud service, the self-hosted versions are also painfully slow no matter what resources you throw at them. That makes the other UX issues worse because the feedback loop has so much lag.

> Navigation is sluggish across the board in both Confluence and Jira. Also in Bitbucket. It used to be super fast, but recent changes made it very slow. My team loves the integration with JIRA but we're considering going to Github because of the slowness.

Do it.

Jira's git integration is really poor anyway.

Even redmine is better, where git commits that mention the issue get thier own column in the UI, and they ALL show up there, not just the ones with the comment annotation.

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