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Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

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Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#111
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? [...] We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number of network calls It's not really a problem with a certain page or a certain action: it's a systemic issue, that can only be solved with a systemic change. This has come up before here in HN [1]. From my point of view, ignoring the issue around number of calls/performance and all feedback reg…

Hi ratww, Thank you for reiterating this point, and I'll try to shed some light on this. We actually are working on systemic changes to try to make this lighter/better but I can't talk about specifics until the feature is available. On the other hand, any level of specificity is great, for example: 1) full page loads are slower and more annoying than Transitions (or, vice versa) 2) loading Home page is slower and mor…

If you want to make performance a feature, you need to (in order!)

* define a metric

* measure it automatically with every commit

* define a success threshold

* make changes to get yourself under the threshold

* prohibit further changes which bring you above the threshold

Just do it like that for pretty much every view in the system.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#112

I'm curious, I'm a Cloud customer and I can tell you that the service is incredibly slow even for a small scale setup (2 Jira Projects and 3 Confluence Workspaces). There's an insane amount of network requests seemingly for mouse tracking. By telling everyone here, that Atlassian Cloud products are insufferably slow, am I violating the ToS? I was actually thinking about doing a write up on the issues I've had but thi…

Sorry to hear it's been a frustrating experience. I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? (edit: looks like HN is severely limiting my reply rate so apologies for delays) We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number…

> Would you be willing to share more specifics

That's something you could easily figure out yourself. E.g., just grabbing some random JIRA:

https://hibernate.atlassian.net/jira/software/c/projects/HV/...

Opening an issue in that tracker takes 24 seconds for me. Twenty-four.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#113
The obvious way to deal with this is to write a passive github repo that contains a performance test harness and test plugins that run against Atlassian servers. Make it trivial for any customer to download and use (I'm going to guess that Atlassian has some license terms about API use that could make this tricky).

Simultaneously, tweet results from anonymous twitter, post to hacker news, get picked up in the trade press, make it big enough that it's embarassing for atlassian when a bunch of customers measure latency and realize the product is crap.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#114

I'm curious, I'm a Cloud customer and I can tell you that the service is incredibly slow even for a small scale setup (2 Jira Projects and 3 Confluence Workspaces). There's an insane amount of network requests seemingly for mouse tracking. By telling everyone here, that Atlassian Cloud products are insufferably slow, am I violating the ToS? I was actually thinking about doing a write up on the issues I've had but thi…

JetBrains recently announced Space and it looks pretty cool (and fast): https://www.jetbrains.com/space/

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to hear it's been a frustrating experience. I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? (edit: looks like HN is severely limiting my reply rate so apologies for delays) We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number…

I did a test for you just now. I have 100Mbps internet, 32GB RAM, 4ghz i7 processor and suchlike. To make it easy for Jira, I'm doing this at a weekend, late at night, during the new years holiday so the servers shouldn't be busy. On a cloud-based classic software project (which has less than 200 issues) opening a link to an issue it takes 4.8 seconds for the page to complete rendering and the progress bar at the top…

Hi michaelt,

Thank you for the numbers -> I agree these are slow, and I can guarantee you that the Jira team is working on it (though I can't talk about details). These numbers are definitely outside of the goals.

I appreciate the call out of "page to complete rendering and the progress bar at the top of the screen to disappear" and "until the issue, comment and buttons have all loaded". In a dream world of course, everything would load in We're currently looking at each use case to understand the '(a) paint faster vs (b) interactive faster' tradeoff and trying to decide which cases the user has a better experience with (a) or (b). In Confluence this is clearer in some places than in others, but in Jira it's less clear I think (I work on Confluence, I probably shouldn't speak for Jira specifics).

It always comes down to a limitation of resources though, which is why we're always hoping to get as specific feedback as possible.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of Confluence specifically, it makes the cost of experimentation a lot steeper. Confluence's WYSIWYG editor will often make changes that can't be reversed with "undo" -- especially those involving indentation. Copy-paste frequently screws up its formatting as well. So if you don't want to risk losing lots of work, you have to make many smaller changes. With each change taking a few seconds, it adds up qui…

We're trying to collect and fix such occurrences, so if you have something with specific repro steps please send them to me and I'll make sure they get to the right team.

The WYSIWYG editor makes it extremely difficult to give repro steps because formatting information is hidden from the user and is not perfectly preserved during copy-paste.

More generally, the issues I see reported only ever seem to be fixed in the Cloud version. I currently have to use the Data Center version.

Why go through the trouble of reporting an issue I'll never see fixed involving a feature that I loathe using?

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#118
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? [...] We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number of network calls It's not really a problem with a certain page or a certain action: it's a systemic issue, that can only be solved with a systemic change. This has come up before here in HN [1]. From my point of view, ignoring the issue around number of calls/performance and all feedback reg…

Hi ratww, Thank you for reiterating this point, and I'll try to shed some light on this. We actually are working on systemic changes to try to make this lighter/better but I can't talk about specifics until the feature is available. On the other hand, any level of specificity is great, for example: 1) full page loads are slower and more annoying than Transitions (or, vice versa) 2) loading Home page is slower and mor…

Dear Esteemed Colleague at Atlassian,

I also use Confluence and JIRA regularly, and can confirm that they are the slowest most terrible software that I use on a regular basis. Every single page load and transition is slow and terrible.

Asking "which one is the highest priority" is like asking which body part I'd least prefer you amputate. The answer is: please don't amputate any of them.

It's as if I asked you to dig out a hole for pouring foundation for a house. The answer to "which shovelfull of dirt has the highest priority" is all of them. Just start shoveling. It's not done until you've dug the entire hole.

It's like the exterminator asking which specific cockroach is bothering me the most. (It's Andy. Andy the cockroach is the most annoying one, so please deal with her first).

What I, and many many other commenters, are trying to tell you is that the entire product is slow and terrible (not your fault. I'm guessing you're new and just trying to improve things, and I hope you succeed!). If it were a building, I'd call it a teardown. If it were a car, I'd call it totaled.

It doesn't matter what page or interaction you start with. Just start shoveling.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#119
post #91
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, and I also know that you have to deal with the world as it is right now even while you work to make it better. If you have to use Jira or Confluence at work, you probably want to know how to make that as useful as possible. If you're working at Atlassian, you probably want to make your customer's experience as enjoyable as possible as soon as possible. Ideally you have a great product and great documentation…

Some people don't want to use it at all, and don't care for the situation that C-suite everywhere buys Atlassian's trash. They don't want minor improvements to help it limp along, they want to vent and complain about it. I think it's impossible that Atlassian evolves into a good product company, but it's entirely possible that my next CTO googled for opinions on the product, found a few discussions on HN with a combi…

And the thread from yesterday (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25590846 for a site named https://whyjirasucks.com) or any of the other many rants on Altassian around the web don't suffice? I hardly think that this thread is going to be the tipping point. It's not like this is news.

Given your opinions regarding Atlassian, what would you think of your next CTO if they were even considering Atlassian? Is that someone you'd want to work for?

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#120

I'm curious, I'm a Cloud customer and I can tell you that the service is incredibly slow even for a small scale setup (2 Jira Projects and 3 Confluence Workspaces). There's an insane amount of network requests seemingly for mouse tracking. By telling everyone here, that Atlassian Cloud products are insufferably slow, am I violating the ToS? I was actually thinking about doing a write up on the issues I've had but thi…

Sorry to hear it's been a frustrating experience. I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? (edit: looks like HN is severely limiting my reply rate so apologies for delays) We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number…

The topic of poor Jira performance came up yesterday, and I did some quick benchmarking of Jira cloud using the best-case scenario for performance: A tiny amount of data, no complex permissions, a commonly used form, no web proxy, no plugins, same geo region as the servers (Sydney), gigabit fibre internet(!), etc...

I spun up a free-tier account and created an empty issue. No data. No history. Nothing in any form fields. As blank as possible.

The only positive aspect is that most of the traffic is coming from a CDN that enables: Gzip, IPv6, HTTP/2, AES-GCM, and TLS 1.3. That's the basics taken care of.

Despite this, reloading the page with a warm cache took a whopping 5.5 seconds. There's an animated progress bar for the empty form!

This required 1.2 MB of uncacheable content to be transferred.

With the cache disabled (or cold), a total of 27.5 MB across 151 files taking 33 seconds is required to display the page. This takes over 5 MB of network traffic after compression. (Note that some corporate web proxies strip compression, so you can't rely on it working!)

For reference, it takes 1.6 seconds on the same computer to start Excel, and 8 seconds to load Visual Studio 2019 (including opening a project). That's four times faster than opening an issue ticket with a cold cache!

Meanwhile, the total text displayed on the screen is less than 1 KB, which means that the page has transfer-to-content efficiency ratio exceeding 1000-to-1. This isn't the animated menu of a computer game, it's a web form!

To render the page, a total of 4.35 seconds of CPU time was required on a gaming desktop PC to with a 3.80 GHz CPU. Having 6-cores doesn't seem to help performance, so don't assume upcoming higher-core CPUs will help in any way.

A developer on an ultraportable laptop running on battery over a WiFi link with a bad corporate proxy server in a different geo-region would likely get a much worse experience. Typically they might get as little as 1.5 GHz and 20 Mbps effective bandwidth, so I can see why people are complaining that Jira page loads are taking 10+ seconds!

In perfectly normal circumstances your customers are likely seeing load times approaching a solid minute.

PS: I do development, and I've avoided Atlassian products primarily because there's been a consistent theme to all discussions related to Atlassian, especially Jira: It's slow.

Stop asking your customers if they're running plugins, or what configuration they're using. Start asking yourself what you've done wrong, terribly, terribly wrong.

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