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Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

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Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#151

Post by tbodt »

confluence_perf wrote: post #28
dalrympm wrote: post #22

I'm curious, I'm a Cloud customer and I can tell you that the service is incredibly slow even for a small scale setup (2 Jira Projects and 3 Confluence Workspaces). There's an insane amount of network requests seemingly for mouse tracking. By telling everyone here, that Atlassian Cloud products are insufferably slow, am I violating the ToS? I was actually thinking about doing a write up on the issues I've had but thi…

Sorry to hear it's been a frustrating experience. I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? (edit: looks like HN is severely limiting my reply rate so apologies for delays) We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number…

I would say the right place for the performance team to apply resources is looking for bugs or missed optimizations that affect everything or nearly everything on the site. Everything is uniformly slow, so there must be a lot of this.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#152

Post by mostlyghostly »

Simple English Translation: We cannot trust any publicly posted claims about product performance, since they have effectively been cherry-picked by the marketing / legal team.

Bad claims can be take down, thus the only remaining claims are good ones.

Cool - can anyone provide a quick list of alternatives?

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#153

Post by confluence_perf »

BillinghamJ wrote: post #150
confluence_perf wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi BillinghamJ, You're right, I apologize for not being clear. We're targeting 1s for "Initial loads" on new tabs/new navigation, which I assume you're referring to. Our target for 'transitions' is different. If however the numbers you're referring to are "initial load" numbers, then I'm not sure. (edit: and action responses again are also a separate category. Our largest number of complaints are about 'page load tim…

As a first step, 1s would be better than nothing for sure, but you need to be working towards a much tighter goal on a 1-2 year timeframe. New load, you should really be hitting 200ms as your 95th percentile - 300ms or so would be decent still. "Transitions" should hit 100ms 95th, 150ms would be decent. If you did hit 100ms across the board, you'd be rewarded by your customers/users psychologically considering the in…

Thank you for coming back and clarifying. Do you happen to have links to any public testing results of other tools, or guidance to this specificity - would love to use them to build a case internally

Most of what we've seen online are nowhere near this level of detail (X-ms for Y-%ile for Z-type of load)

(edit: clarified request)

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#154

Post by lmilcin »

michaelt wrote: post #105
confluence_perf wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to hear it's been a frustrating experience. I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? (edit: looks like HN is severely limiting my reply rate so apologies for delays) We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number…

I did a test for you just now. I have 100Mbps internet, 32GB RAM, 4ghz i7 processor and suchlike. To make it easy for Jira, I'm doing this at a weekend, late at night, during the new years holiday so the servers shouldn't be busy. On a cloud-based classic software project (which has less than 200 issues) opening a link to an issue it takes 4.8 seconds for the page to complete rendering and the progress bar at the top…

See, the irony of this is that you are just publicly sharing performance numbers which undeniably show a pattern of performance issues. It also doesn't seem to be possible without you first accepting ToS.

Ooops!

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#155

Post by foepys »

isodev wrote: post #114
dalrympm wrote: post #22

I'm curious, I'm a Cloud customer and I can tell you that the service is incredibly slow even for a small scale setup (2 Jira Projects and 3 Confluence Workspaces). There's an insane amount of network requests seemingly for mouse tracking. By telling everyone here, that Atlassian Cloud products are insufferably slow, am I violating the ToS? I was actually thinking about doing a write up on the issues I've had but thi…

JetBrains recently announced Space and it looks pretty cool (and fast): https://www.jetbrains.com/space/

Currently cloud-only but an on-premises version has been announced. So while Atlassian goes cloud-only, Jetbrains is going in the other direction.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#156

Post by runlevel1 »

MandieD wrote: post #121
runlevel1 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of Confluence specifically, it makes the cost of experimentation a lot steeper. Confluence's WYSIWYG editor will often make changes that can't be reversed with "undo" -- especially those involving indentation. Copy-paste frequently screws up its formatting as well. So if you don't want to risk losing lots of work, you have to make many smaller changes. With each change taking a few seconds, it adds up qui…

I always write my stuff in Word first, then paste into Confluence.

I do that too when creating a new page.

Editing an existing page is more perilous. I sometimes write out my changes in plaintext first, and then paste and format it into the doc piece by piece. Even that can get janky, though.

It's like Confluence is punishing my attempts to write documentation.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#157

Post by Quarrel »

From a Tableau terms of service:

https://www.tableau.com/tlc-terms

3(g): "publicly disseminate information regarding the performance of the Tableau Beta Products."

3(f) is also identical, but they otherwise don't look that similar.

They're both > $50B companies, so you'd think they could get their lawyers to use different verbage..

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#158

Post by xtracto »

confluence_perf wrote: post #28
dalrympm wrote: post #22

I'm curious, I'm a Cloud customer and I can tell you that the service is incredibly slow even for a small scale setup (2 Jira Projects and 3 Confluence Workspaces). There's an insane amount of network requests seemingly for mouse tracking. By telling everyone here, that Atlassian Cloud products are insufferably slow, am I violating the ToS? I was actually thinking about doing a write up on the issues I've had but thi…

Sorry to hear it's been a frustrating experience. I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? (edit: looks like HN is severely limiting my reply rate so apologies for delays) We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number…

> Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ?

I would... but Atlassian TOS prohibit me from doing so :(

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#159

Post by fullstackwife »

isodev wrote: post #114
dalrympm wrote: post #22

I'm curious, I'm a Cloud customer and I can tell you that the service is incredibly slow even for a small scale setup (2 Jira Projects and 3 Confluence Workspaces). There's an insane amount of network requests seemingly for mouse tracking. By telling everyone here, that Atlassian Cloud products are insufferably slow, am I violating the ToS? I was actually thinking about doing a write up on the issues I've had but thi…

JetBrains recently announced Space and it looks pretty cool (and fast): https://www.jetbrains.com/space/

"looks cool and fast" - DMC DeLorean ?

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#160

Post by throw_jirauser »

confluence_perf wrote: post #136
lostdog wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dear Esteemed Colleague at Atlassian, I also use Confluence and JIRA regularly, and can confirm that they are the slowest most terrible software that I use on a regular basis. Every single page load and transition is slow and terrible. Asking "which one is the highest priority" is like asking which body part I'd least prefer you amputate. The answer is: please don't amputate any of them. It's as if I asked you to dig…

Hi lostdog, Thanks for the understanding! Indeed I haven't been at Atlassian that long, but that's not a good excuse: it's my problem to own. I appreciate the reinforcement of "fix everything", and I assure you we're trying our best to do so. As a PM it is my natural instinct (and literal job) to prioritize, so I'm always looking for more details to do so. I can understand that my request for details can imply that I…

This is a throwaway since I use Jira/Confluence at work and am not authorized to officially speak on their behalf.

We are actively looking for other solutions outside of Atlassian, specifically because the demands to switch to your cloud offerings. We simply do not trust your cloud.

We also have a higher compliance requirement, since we can have potential snippets of production data. Our Jira/Confluence systems are highly isolated inside a high compliance solution. We can verify and prove that these machines do not leak.

The Atlassian cloud is completely unacceptable in every way possible. And going from $1200ish year to $20000 per year with data center is laughably horrendous - for the same exact features.

Unless Atlassian changes its direction, your software is that of the walking dead. We have a absolute hard timelimit of 2024, but in reality, 2022. We'd like to still use it and pay you appropriately, but we're not about to compromise our data security handling procedures so you can funnel more people into a cloud service... And judging by the comments here, is pretty damn terrible.

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